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Riot: Let us queue in 5v5 solo by the meta roles

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Amatzikahni

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
Seaux:
@Amatzikahni If i'm not mistaken PvP (specifically Arena) was teams only, so there is a comparative solo queue PvP system in WoW. Thus why I was referencing their instance queue.

Also, in arena, you didn't really have to worry about roles like adc, apc, jungler. The setup was almost that literally in combination could/would work. Its just not so much the case here.

Both of these examples contradict the point you're trying to make.

In WoW, the only thing that you could queue roles for was 5-man PvE; nothing else. The reason is because it's entirely scripted and there's no randomness outside of crits and mitigation (dodges, parries, aggro). There is no PvE system in LoL outside of Co-op VS AI, so that would be the only mode with role queue by your example.

In Arenas, you didn't have to worry about roles because you did what worked and countered the enemy. That's the exact same thing in LoL: you might throw your AD mid to counter their mid, or throw your ADC+Support top to freefarm and zone/pressure. Mid and top can lane swap, and I've even seen cases where teams have two smites and the junglers rotate between top+jungle, double jungle, and jungle+top until the lane phase is over so that they always have full health against the enemy. The same thing occurs in WoW: you get various comps that work on synergy and aim to capitalize on the weaknesses of your opponents and dominate using your strengths. I've seen triple healer, double war/pal + fifth, Euro, 2345, 2346, 2347, and gimmick teams and they all worked because they played to their strengths and exposed the enemy's weaknesses. Just like in LoL, I've seen four tanks ("Protect The Kog&quot, pure damage/high CC (no tanks), double support, double jungle, triple mid, etc.

The reason you see the same ideas at high Elo in LoL is the exact same reason why you see the same comps in tournaments in WoW: top teams and players follow what they believe to be the best plan when the stakes are high, and that plan can easily shift as soon as someone figures out how to beat it.


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Gray the Grayte

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Totally agree with you.

See suggestion 7 in my Suggestions for improving solo ranked play (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2715855) thread for how I think it should work

Quote:
Gray the Grayte:

7) Add "roles" to the matchmaking
  • Most of the troll behaviour in solo queue ranked hero select is caused by people clashing over what roles they want to play
  • Some people are happy to play any role but others want to play just one or two as they specialise. There is nothing wrong with this in principle.
  • The problem comes where people disagree over roles which seems to happen a high proportion of the time
  • Some people "call" their desired role by frantically typing it as quickly as they can into the chat log. They feel that gives them the right to trump the pick order. "I called first!"
  • Other people ignore chat and simply pick their role when their turn comes. They feel that "calling" roles is merely a request and pick order takes precedence. "I don't care what you typed! Ranked works in pick order"
  • Then it all spirals downhill from there resulting in trolling behaviour - verbal abuse, afk at fountain, doubling up of roles etc
  • The solution I feel is fairly simple
    • When you Queue it gives you a list of possible roles (all checked by default) and you can uncheck any that you are unwilling to play. Note: By role I mean the lane positions (top, mid, jungle, bottom, support) not team composition (tank, initiator, ap carry, adc etc). Lane positions are what cause all the arguments in hero select.
    • The matchmaking process would then assemble teams that had all roles covered.
    • In the hero selection it would highlight the role the matchmaker has assigned to each person to eliminate arguments.
    • It would also however show the allowed list of roles for each person in case people want to informally swap roles based on the hero selection activity such as bans on their favourite heros, counter picks, etc.
    • If the person doesn't change anything from the defaults then they will be treated as willing to play all roles.
    • Obviously players that are less fussy or are willing to play the less popular roles such as support will have shorter queue times so there is built-in incentive for people to leave more roles checked.


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Swooshter

Senior Member

11-19-2012

While I agree it would be nice to have (especially considering that if you plan to play higher elo, you will be specialized by lane choice), one major problem that comes to mind, is how do you enforce it? Let's say troll A decides to que as support, but then picks an ADC. Even with a lane wanted in mind, there is still no way to force a lane. In fact, this would just be a vehicle to help trolls mess with games.

And before it is brought up, you can't limit the champs available based on the role picked, since some champs can do multiple roles and I have seen some crazy champs in lanes they do not normally go. Personally, I have destroyed some top lanes by going malz top (its not always effective, but it can work).


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Selcopa

Senior Member

11-20-2012

If the ladders were divided by roles as well solo top, solo mid etc etc. Then you could consider then

We also run into the problem of what if I wanna queue up as 2v1 top. 1v2 bot. 2v1 mid. Or even 2v1 top for 4 minutes. If we had separate ladders that wouldn't work. And there are too many details required. How does matchmaking queue me up for the role of 2v1 top when the enemy is playing shen. Or 2v1 top when mid plays Ap Janna? Matchmaking can't handle that. But there is a time and place for that. And the fact that I'm capable of executing those strategies in the right situations is part of what contributes to me being better than you


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Seaux

Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
ShiningLight:
Are you serious? How many games do you queue up and have somebody say "Support please"? In contrast, how many games do you queue up and have somebody say "Mid please"? I wouldn't be surprised if the people queueing for mid outnumbered people queueing for support 10-1 or more. Although maybe matchmaking could have 10 happy groups of players in a game, what about the other 100 groups of players still waiting in the queue? Queue timers would shoot up past 20 seconds to more than an hour for anybody not queueing for support.

WoW is a completely different game from LoL, that's like arguing "red apples are the best, therefore oranges should also be red". It is well known that support is the least desired role on a 5v5 team. When you queue for draft pick you acknowledge there will be a pick order. If you don't get the role you desire, deal with it - either play it or dodge.

Lastly, Riot does NOT want to show bias towards the current meta by making people queue up for roles in the current meta - that would reduce creativity in players and any theorycrafting due to players being forced into the meta every single game they played; which means about 1/10 of players total that were able to get into a game in the first place

Why do you try to argue "just as many people will queue for support if they can find a game faster" when games are already found extremely fast? This whole argument doesn't even include low levels who don't have an understanding of the meta and people trying to get out of "elo hell" who would only queue up for carry roles. There's no point trying to argue for this to happen, because it won't.


Not nearly as many, but support is a completely separate issue I have with Riot. While support is needed, but it's an extremely limited role. Riot's amazingly unimpressive ability design is the cause of lack of people wanting to play support. Why play support that has cc when you can play a mid or jungle that has just as much cc, more damage, and a much greater effect on the game.

I wasn't meaning to use WoW as a comparison, but an example of where a solo-queue followed a meta to do things that a group could easily break the meta and do just as well. (Aka, if you have a good enough coordination, you could do instances without following the meta)

I understand that Riot doesn't want to form or support a meta bias, but my opinion is that it's an Utopian hope for solo queue. Players cling to the meta in solo queue because that's been the established way to best play with people of whom you've never played with before. It's followed because it's been tried, challenged, and survived. Even in arranged 5v5, most meta breaks are gimmicky, when was the last professional game that you saw that broke the meta btw? CLG tries some things and has won a few games, but they aren't enough to cause a shaking of the meta.

As for enforcing the meta. Off the top of my head, you could do something like a vote when your team arranges to break the meta or not and if its not unanimous then players can only select champions that fit their role? Haven't really thought threw that, but it's an idea.

The problem with "breaking the meta" is that it usually has to involve most or all of the team's cooperation. Strategies, timelines, etc change when the meta is broken. An all AP team is too easily countered by magic resist and same for all AD. Arguably because of the items in the game, Riot has forced this requirement for a balance of AP and AD. Maybe if they reduced the effectiveness of armor and magic resist, you could see more meta breaks?

Most people who try to "break the meta" in solo queue get reported as being trolls because of this reason. Try to remember the last time you had a teammate that wanted to do something other than support at the bot lane. You either had someone dodge, lost the game and reported the guy, etc etc.

As for the low levels, I don't care to be honest because this is a competitive discussion and I'm only trying to refer to ranked solo queue. Let regular solo queue do whatever they want.

In special reference to your quote: "When you queue for draft pick you acknowledge there will be a pick order. If you don't get the role you desire, deal with it - either play it or dodge." To acknowledge there is a pick order and roles you also have to acknowledge there is a meta. So this point of yours seems counter intuitive to your/Riots "we shouldn't force a meta".


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Seaux

Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Selcopa:
If the ladders were divided by roles as well solo top, solo mid etc etc. Then you could consider then

We also run into the problem of what if I wanna queue up as 2v1 top. 1v2 bot. 2v1 mid. Or even 2v1 top for 4 minutes. If we had separate ladders that wouldn't work. And there are too many details required. How does matchmaking queue me up for the role of 2v1 top when the enemy is playing shen. Or 2v1 top when mid plays Ap Janna? Matchmaking can't handle that. But there is a time and place for that. And the fact that I'm capable of executing those strategies in the right situations is part of what contributes to me being better than you


Queues would follow the meta by role not lane? Lane assignment wouldn't be part of the queue -- so you'd queue for support/jungler/adc/apc/tank(top). If there was a Shen on the other team then you'd have to work with your team in the game to switch lanes. This isn't about enforcing what lanes are played just that the certain roles are established. You could also (as suggested earlier) chose to break the meta in champ select or something to do special counters.

I am very well aware and capable of executing those strategies in the right situations and am not trying to prevent those. Those strategies still require the main roles.

Also Janna can be selected as an ap carry just like Soraka.

Please don't think so highly of yourself that you fail to see the simple fallacies of your argument.


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Seaux

Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Amatzikahni:
Both of these examples contradict the point you're trying to make.

In WoW, the only thing that you could queue roles for was 5-man PvE; nothing else. The reason is because it's entirely scripted and there's no randomness outside of crits and mitigation (dodges, parries, aggro). There is no PvE system in LoL outside of Co-op VS AI, so that would be the only mode with role queue by your example.

In Arenas, you didn't have to worry about roles because you did what worked and countered the enemy. That's the exact same thing in LoL: you might throw your AD mid to counter their mid, or throw your ADC+Support top to freefarm and zone/pressure. Mid and top can lane swap, and I've even seen cases where teams have two smites and the junglers rotate between top+jungle, double jungle, and jungle+top until the lane phase is over so that they always have full health against the enemy. The same thing occurs in WoW: you get various comps that work on synergy and aim to capitalize on the weaknesses of your opponents and dominate using your strengths. I've seen triple healer, double war/pal + fifth, Euro, 2345, 2346, 2347, and gimmick teams and they all worked because they played to their strengths and exposed the enemy's weaknesses. Just like in LoL, I've seen four tanks ("Protect The Kog&quot, pure damage/high CC (no tanks), double support, double jungle, triple mid, etc.

The reason you see the same ideas at high Elo in LoL is the exact same reason why you see the same comps in tournaments in WoW: top teams and players follow what they believe to be the best plan when the stakes are high, and that plan can easily shift as soon as someone figures out how to beat it.


I'm not saying solo queue CAN'T break the meta, I'm just saying to queue as it. I recently replied to someone else about this.

As for WoW, again, I was only using it as a successful example of a solo queue with roles, not a perfect comparison to LoL's situation.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Seaux:
Queues would follow the meta by role not lane? Lane assignment wouldn't be part of the queue -- so you'd queue for support/jungler/adc/apc/tank(top). If there was a Shen on the other team then you'd have to work with your team in the game to switch lanes. This isn't about enforcing what lanes are played just that the certain roles are established. You could also (as suggested earlier) chose to break the meta in champ select or something to do special counters.

I am very well aware and capable of executing those strategies in the right situations and am not trying to prevent those. Those strategies still require the main roles.

Also Janna can be selected as an ap carry just like Soraka.

Please don't think so highly of yourself that you fail to see the simple fallacies of your argument.

Lane swaps involve different sub sets of champions than their standard roles. Not only for the swapping lanes but for the other roles too. They're so different than your standard top they would require their own checkmark in the role selection boxes.

There also isn't this standard role setup. A single champion picked on either team can completely change the role of your jungle and every other champion role on your team. You say top is "tank" but what if jungle is amumu tank. Now you need subsets for jungle too. Nothing guarantees these roles work together.

Even the course of the game changes the role of each player. I understand the concept that you want people to pick a ranged ad. A magic user. A support and 2 other guys. But there are so many subsets in those picks to work well that transcend the standard 5 different spots to play. Its these slight deviations from the meta that are what makes some players better than others. And if you force players to pick from a narrow set of roles you are limiting development of the meta.


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Seaux

Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Selcopa:
Lane swaps involve different sub sets of champions than their standard roles. Not only for the swapping lanes but for the other roles too. They're so different than your standard top they would require their own checkmark in the role selection boxes.

There also isn't this standard role setup. A single champion picked on either team can completely change the role of your jungle and every other champion role on your team. You say top is "tank" but what if jungle is amumu tank. Now you need subsets for jungle too. Nothing guarantees these roles work together.

Even the course of the game changes the role of each player. I understand the concept that you want people to pick a ranged ad. A magic user. A support and 2 other guys. But there are so many subsets in those picks to work well that transcend the standard 5 different spots to play. Its these slight deviations from the meta that are what makes some players better than others. And if you force players to pick from a narrow set of roles you are limiting development of the meta.


Yea, I had had some similar thoughts when I was originally thinking about this idea. Especially about top lane because it covers a broad spectrum of possibilities. But then it occurred to me that people still "call" top just the same as they call any other role at the beginning of champ select. This happening, of course, before any awareness of a particular subset meta system needed. You do see some people saying, "hey i want to play top as <champ>, but I'll play something else if I don't get him or if he gets countered". And for the scenario, I think like a "swap role" or something feature could work?

As for forcing players to pick from a narrow set, maybe the system doesn't force players to select from only a subset of champions deemed for a certain role.

The best solution out there should probably just be about setting expectations rather than forcing a certain play style. The goal here is to be able to join a game queue knowing that you can play that certain role you want if the situation fits and yet still be flexible enough to handle/encourage creative gameplay. Can we agree on that being a good goal?

I understand that whatever solution is to come isn't as simple as just queuing as a role, but I really do think a solution could be derived out of the general "queuing for a role" idea without taking away from any possible meta subset.

What if the queuing by role was a suggestion rather than a forcing? If you had "I'm willing to play these roles" instead of "I'm queuing for this role"?


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Amatzikahni

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Seaux:
I'm not saying solo queue CAN'T break the meta, I'm just saying to queue as it. I recently replied to someone else about this.

As for WoW, again, I was only using it as a successful example of a solo queue with roles, not a perfect comparison to LoL's situation.

I feel like you ignored the points my post was trying to make, so let me restate them.

You can't queue for WoW 5v5 Arenas as one healer, one tank, and three DPS; role queuing is strictly for PvE, something completely scripted against an AI that has zero randomness and no player verse player interaction. Just like WoW has no set 5v5 queue system outside of PvE, you can't make LoL have a set 5v5 queue system outside of scripted PvE.

WoW's successful implementation of the queue system is PvE. There is no role queue system in place for PvP because it cannot and will never work. Likewise, you cannot implement a PvP queuing system for LoL by the same measures.

Your comparison is analogous to saying that, since Guild Wars 2 has 5k v 5k WPvP, LoL should have a system where you can get 10,000 players onto one field because it worked for GW2. You can't make that analogy—apples to oranges means nothing.


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