Very minor Panth request

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Icraig33

Senior Member

11-17-2012

(warning, wall of text incoming)

Hey there! I just got out of a few games with the new items as my main man Pantheon and I'm loving the changes that I had time to test out (since the games were over really quickly). What I think I especially liked were how you guys almost nailed the recommended items for him. There is one very minor thing though. I noticed that Maw of Malmortius is his MR item in the set and not the new item Mercurial Scimitar. Now, I haven't exactly tested it out quite long enough to be sure, but Wouldn't Mercurial Scimitar make more sense in his recommended items?

You see, I don't know about all you guys (maybe I just played him wrong the whole time), but I always found that Pantheon should be played as the squishy burst assassin for the most part. You know, that douchy kind that runs into a fight, kills a squishy, runs away before the enemy can retaliate, rinse and repeat until they are all dead. Currently, I build him like mostly like a bruiser on live (My core being BT, Mercs and Brutalizer, followed by building to whatever the situation calls for, most of the time being Maw, Mallet, GA, Infinity Edge or LW. I don't build Atma's because GA is better imo.), but only because it's the only way for him to stay viable later on with the current item set.
But with the new Item changes, building him like this isn't as necessary anymore. Now, you can build him for burst assassin and it works! My main PBE build is Mercs, BT, Avarice into Youmuu's (since Avarice is broken as hell atm and the new Youmuu's is really good now), Mercurial Scimitar, GA and IE. This build grants me up to 390 AD (<-- taking runes and masteries into account), +150 armor and +170 MR like a bawss. Mercurial Scimitar works much better in my build than Maw does because it's tailored to the burst assassin playstyle

This isn't to say that maw isn't a great item (it is), it's just that Maw is much more tailored to to tanky bruisers, a role that Pantheon isn't as great at. I always saw Maw as the kind of item you get on Renekton, Jarvan, Garen, Riven and other such champions. These guys have good damage over the course of a fight, and the actually have abilities that allow them to be tanky: renekton has his Ult/Q, Jarvan has his W/E, Garen has his W and Riven has her E, thus allowing them to stay at lower health without fear of getting bursted down quickly. While Pantheon does certainly have the damage to stay scary over the course of a fight (in fact, he has just as much DPS as he does burst, due to his cooldowns on Q/E), the main reasons he can't fufill the bruiser role as well as the others is because:

1. All of his main damage is shoved into two of his abilities, while the others have their damage more well-rounded throughout their kits. His W isn't enough damage to be relevant (though why would one think about using it for the damage in the first place???) and his Ult isn't reliable, since you can only use it once every minute or so (and even then it isn't guaranteed that you'll do good enough damage for it to be scary, but then again refer to W).
2. The only true defensive ability Pantheon has is his passive. While it's amazing early on, it isn't really anything special later in the game.
3. If you try to build tanky enough to compensate for the lack of tanky abilities, at least on live, you won't be taking advantage of his epic AD scaling.

"But wait a second!" you might be saying, "The Maw passive should fix this damage problem right?" well, no. While it's a good passive (on other champions, as explained above), it isn't as great on Panth because, once again, he has no tankiness in his abilities. Sure, you can have all the tank items you want, but it isn't enough to take advantage of the passive.
But you know what Pantheon can take advantage of? Quicksilver Sash's Active! It allows him to play the burst assassin role and not have to worry about CC as much, since he can just shrug off the CC attempts and run off like nothing happened. Now if only Quicksilver built into an item that also gave a good amount of AD... OH WAIT.

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So yeah, TL;DR, I think that Mercurial Scimitar should be Pantheon's MR recommended item as opposed to Maw of Malmortius, since the burst-assassin nature of the Scimitar is much more suited to him than the bruiser nature of Maw. Keep in mind that these are just the thoughts of a guy who doesn't play ranked and just loves his Pantheon. It's not even a really important change or anything, I just think it would be more efficient overall.

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EDIT: For those of you who are wondering, I run full AD reds/quints (though I'm changing to ArPen since they are better late game and only slightly weaker early game), armor yellows and MR/lvl blues, with 21/9/0 masteries on PBE. Also, apparently the new LW only penetrates bonus armor. If that's the case, then I don't think it's worth buying as much anymore and you could probably get more out of BC, since it reduces base armor too

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSpicedRum View Post
mercucial is probably better, but requires you to remember to activate it. For beginners who need advice on items, i'd recommend maw, take out that chance of derping.
That is a pretty good point, but at the same time, Mercurial could teach new players about the importance of utilizing item actives (especially now in S3, where there are twice as many active-able items as before). Maw, on the other hand, could end up teaching new players that the best way to use this item is to be constantly at low health, which isn't exactly the amount of health Pantheon wants to be at. Even with bruisers, the passive serves more as the cherry on the cake, if you know what I mean.

Also, another thing I just remembered is that You could easily just have you support run Mikael's Crucible and then have a maw at the same time, and essentially get the effect. The only problem is you don't get as much flat AD/MR with this and the fact that the effect must be activated by another player makes it less reliable than if you were to have the effect yourself

You could also argue that not every team will have enough CC to take advantage of this, To which I disagree. Even if you are lucky enough to be facing an enemy team without any CC whatsoever (kat, Morde, Yi, Sivir, Ezeral are the examples I can think of off the top of my head), you can still effectively use the fact that, since Pantheon is melee, he can still use it as a free 1s 100% MS buff effectively without needing to remove any debuffs whatsoever. In fact, with Mercs, Scimitar and Youmuu's, you can have up to 590 MS for 1s, followed by 467 for the last 5. I'm not even counting 3rd tier enchantments or MS quints, so imagine the speed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angam View Post
I disagree. On anything but an ADC, Mercurial Scimitar doesn't really increase survivability. The QSS active isn't about surviving an attack (it doesn't reduce the damage you take at all, unlike the passives on Maw or Banshee's), it's about doing as much damage as possible before you die. The difference for ADC's is that with enough damage, attack speed, and life steal, doing damage is the same thing as increasing your survivability. That's why a late game ADC can 1v1 almost anyone in the game as long as they don't get cc'd. Pantheon doesn't have this luxury, and as such he needs to build survivability the old-fashioned way.
I still think Mercurial is a better survivability item because it grants more MR (not by a lot, but still) and I don't find the passives are enough to justify buying Maw over it. By the time the Shield passive kicks in, I'm usually in a irreversibly fatal situation anyways (and the shield doesn't tend to help much). As for the AD/missing health, Another reason I don't find it justify-able enough is how much it clashes with BT, while Mercurial doesn't seem to clash with BT at all. I only ever found the passives on Maw to be life-saving only a few times out of a few hundred matches played with Pantheon. I tend to have more of a CC problem as mentioned above. I guess it does boil down to playstyle, and mine utilizes Merc better than Maw.

Again, that's not to say the Maw is a bad item, it's just that I would rather have more raw stats and a Quicksilver active than less raw stats and two slightly unreliable passives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBahamutXVI View Post
I would also like to state that Frozen Fist is an amazing item on him, as he uses all of the stats very efficiently. I feel like Frozen Fist is a strong item overall and is good on anyone who uses the stats.
This guy makes an amazing point. I would definitely buy it on Pantheon as my armor option. While it doesn't give AD, It grants great armor, good Cooldown Reduction, a lot of mana, helps make your W damage barely more relevant (the number is too small for R to care) and an epic passive (after using an ability, your next attack will deal bonus damage equal to 125% of your base AD to surrounding enemies as well as creating an 3s-long ice field at that slows all enemies inside by 35%)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsai64 View Post
You do realize reccommended Items are trash 90% of the time right?
In any other case, i'd agree with you. But Panth's updated recommended items that come in the new patch are so close to being perfect that they might as well go the extra mile and put in the small change


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Zerid

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Good post and I agree. I don't think they will change it as Maw is a good item on him. But maybe if you were to make a guide you could put it in there.


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Icraig33

Senior Member

11-18-2012

aight. I'm not quite the best at making guides, but i'll try nonetheless


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Elkirus

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Huge post without a TL;DR? How about no...


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Icraig33

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I actually did have one, just not bolded and underligned. Fixed (even though it honestly shouldn't be needed)


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BlackSpicedRum

Senior Member

11-18-2012

mercucial is probably better, but requires you to remember to activate it. For beginners who need advice on items, i'd recommend maw, take out that chance of derping.


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Angam

Senior Member

11-18-2012

I disagree. On anything but an ADC, Mercurial Scimitar doesn't really increase survivability. The QSS active isn't about surviving an attack (it doesn't reduce the damage you take at all, unlike the passives on Maw or Banshee's), it's about doing as much damage as possible before you die. The difference for ADC's is that with enough damage, attack speed, and life steal, doing damage is the same thing as increasing your survivability. That's why a late game ADC can 1v1 almost anyone in the game as long as they don't get cc'd. Pantheon doesn't have this luxury, and as such he needs to build survivability the old-fashioned way.


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Edzter

Senior Member

11-18-2012

title - a very minor panth request
i mouse over to see 'warning! wall of text!'

you serious? even the tl;dr is long come on


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Icraig33

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edzter View Post
title - a very minor panth request
i mouse over to see 'warning! wall of text!'

you serious? even the tl;dr is long come on
It's a very minor request, but it requires a lot of reasoning to back it up


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Mogs01gt

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Panth needs redesigned. He only has 3 usable abilites and poor scaling on 2 out of 4 abilities. Itemization is not that big of an issue on him. Its his ap scaling for no reason and a poor designed ult for sr.



He is still my favorite champ character wise.


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