[Featured Discussion] The S3 versions of Manamune and Archangel's Staff

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Phourc

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by naotasan View Post
Fun fact about tear (right now as it stands in live) and everything it uses (AA/Manamune).

The tooltip says 3 seconds but you can spam skills as fast as you want and you'll still get the mana bonus. There is some strange threshold where you can spam 3-5 skills before you even notice that it has a cooldown (the items have cooldown things now) and it slowly builds up to 3 seconds.

Is this fixed in the newer items being made?

Last I heard, the live version has an internal 'reservoir system' where you can fire a couple spells within that three seconds and still get multiple charges, it only truly goes on cooldown once all the reservoir charges are expended.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is primarily why I'm reticent to make the change.
I don't want Kassadin to get even more nuts with an activatable shield. I'm not too worried about Manamune though, as it's much better on RADC than bruisers and melee.
Soo... leave as is, watch and change if needed! xP

Not like we won't have a LOOOT of ridiculous items incoming, no need to tweak them upwards just yet xP


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LastProtagonist

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Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This still concerns me though. Assuming a Dominion game lasts 20 minutes on average, it's not much time to really make good use of the active effects. I'm also assuming you've been spamming spells out-of-combat... that's never really been a piece of gameplay I'm fond of.
It is a bit concerning. I rushed a tear in the fountain, pressed Q for the first minute and a half, and pretty much just left my poison on the entire game when I realized that I'd die relatively quickly (about when I was going low on mana.)

That being said, with Singed's passive I had about 1000 bonus health with my Seraph's Embrace, RoA, and Tear. Granted, this was a bot game, but I still received an extra 90 AP from the Seraph as well. Once you use its active...Singed is still scary, even if he's a beefy "glass cannon."

For me it wasn't so much the spam of the abilities as much as it was the ease the new tear makes for some champions to abuse it. Karthus used to just spam Q in the fountain; now he just needs to press E...and I think Karthus is one of the scariest to take advantage of Archangel stacking.

I think for Twisted Treeline! and Dominion, this iteration of the tear is too powerful because you can begin building on it immediately. It's easy to build an unfair headstart as a result, especially in Dominion since you can still afford boots and potions. In Summoner's Rift, you have to at least lane for a little bit and then go back to begin stacking the tear. Sometimes you really can't leave lane for a while depending on your opponent, so there's at least some counterplay there.

If you're going to rush tear, it should really be more of an early game gambit, at least on Dominion.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeiro View Post
@SuperExplosion: Reading the descriptions, it seems that Seraph's Embrace has a fixed "+1000 Mana". Meaning, if it transforms at 300 bonus mana, you end up still end up with the max 1000 Mana (250 base + 750 bonus). It has to be changed to inheriting from AA for that to happen.
The concept of a transform threshold tailored for Dominion is still fine--

The item or a new item would simply need coding that allows continued charging (if that is balanced), or a flat bonus with continued charging, or just a flat bonus.

If the goal is to retain the maximum potential (and fun active) as the same in SR, but smooth the power curve for Dominion, a variant item that transforms to gain the desired active at a lower level, but continues charging to the higher level seems worthy of testing.

So on Crystal Scar, at 500 mana, Archangel's Staff transforms to a new item very similar to Seraph's Embrace, but instead of a flat +1000, it is a chargeable +1000.

Amesha's Embrace, Kiss, or the like maybe.

(Or just leave the same name, same item, and remove the flat bonus to keep a continued charging mechanic.
Playtest a bunch of iterations with flat bonuses, charging, thresholds, see which one makes Kassadin and his opponents collectively cry the least.)

Edit: There's also the ability to time-defer a flat bonus, similar to Rod of Ages-- transform at low threshold, gain RoA-like mana building over time.


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FDru

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by naotasan View Post
Fun fact about tear (right now as it stands in live) and everything it uses (AA/Manamune).

The tooltip says 3 seconds but you can spam skills as fast as you want and you'll still get the mana bonus. There is some strange threshold where you can spam 3-5 skills before you even notice that it has a cooldown (the items have cooldown things now) and it slowly builds up to 3 seconds.

Is this fixed in the newer items being made?
It can gain charges up to twice within 6 seconds. If you only cast one spell per 6 seconds it will never go on cooldown. It's been this way for as long as I can remember.


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I'm not too worried about Manamune though, as it's much better on RADC than bruisers and melee.

What the hell? Ranged Attack Damage Carries DO NOT NEED ANY MORE HELP. They got enough, and they will always have a place in this game. Manamune should be made to be better on Melee Attack Damage Casters.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

11-16-2012

Maybe make a Dom / TT Tear that has both it's cap and bonus % adjusted. If the cap was lower and the % mana used on the build out items was higher it could give roughly the same stats...and yet not be so unlimited mana on certain characters.


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FDru

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostStalker86 View Post
What the hell? Ranged Attack Damage Carries DO NOT NEED ANY MORE HELP. They got enough, and they will always have a place in this game. Manamune should be made to be better on Melee Attack Damage Casters.
What a bunch of derp.

1. Ranged carries suck in Dominion

2. Let's buff Manamune for Riven/Renekton/Zed/Lee Sin/Garen! lol


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Arance

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is primarily why I'm reticent to make the change.
I don't want Kassadin to get even more nuts with an activatable shield. I'm not too worried about Manamune though, as it's much better on RADC than bruisers and melee.
Not much of a solution perhaps, but maybe we can put a cap on it? Say, 3000 Mana/750 shield?


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
What a bunch of derp.

1. Ranged carries suck in Dominion

2. Let's buff Manamune for Riven/Renekton/Zed/Lee Sin/Garen! lol
Kha'zix, Pantheon, Urgot, Talon, Darius?


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Quarlow

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Senior Member

11-16-2012

I personally feel that, on Dominion, all matriculations should be doubled in rate/speed. Manamune, RoA, on-kill passives for champs, and the like.

Dunno how this would affect the balance of Nasus/Veigar though and their farm.