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Less Gold in New Jungle

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ninjainjury

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
We had to slightly lower the gold on the first clear due to the increase of ambient GP10 we put on the map. It seems like we left that undocumented.

I'll get back to you guys with the exact numbers, but once you factor that into the calculations early jungle gold should be very similar. We're not looking to buff the jungler early game in any way, shape, or form. If it's a nerf, then let's fix that.

what do you mean "if it's a nerf"? if you give similar or even lesser gold for clearing harder camps that take more time and do more damage then how is it not super obviously a clear nerf?


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

11-16-2012

Quote:
Montegomery:
I can tell immediately that makes up the difference. I'll update the first post accordingly.

Awesome.

Well if the numbers still aren't working out. I'm happy to throw the right amount of gold back onto the monsters to fix the issue.

Thanks for bringing up this concern.


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SuperCostaBro

Senior Member

11-16-2012

really good post. thx statikk


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

11-16-2012

Quote:
ninjainjury:
what do you mean "if it's a nerf"? if you give similar or even lesser gold for clearing harder camps that take more time and do more damage then how is it not super obviously a clear nerf?

We intend for the first clear to be both slower and more difficult (these 2 often go hand in hand).

We don't intend for the overall first clear's gold to be much less than it was before even if it is taking longer.

At the end of the day, we're looking to gauge the impact and power level junglers have on the early game overall not necessarily just gold flow.


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Sephïroth

Senior Member

11-16-2012

You're still nerfing the jungle with ambient GP10 because they are now falling further behind than the lanes are.

The only reason I bring it up is you said you were not aiming for a nerf, but you're making it harder whilst making it less rewarding.

Generally, when it comes to nerfs I feel you guys really know what you're doing.


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Pvt Piledriver

Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
Hmm, I don't think you guys understand what I'm saying.

On Summoner's Rift (and on any map for that matter of fact), there is an ambient gold flow that all champions get once the game begins spawning minions (1:30). This amount is independent of the GP10 items which further increase this value.

This base value has been increased on the map in order to help out champions who don't get to kill tons of creeps. In order to keep overall gold flow relatively the same for the other champions, we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate.

From what I hear, we may have not gotten the ambient gold increase onto the PBE build last night. I'll be looking into that.

Then you haven't actually buffed jungle gold. You've made both jungling and lane farm less rewarding, and with the jungle being made more punishing, these changes are going to hit it harder than lane farm. This also has the effect of basically enforcing GP10s in the jungle since going for ganks early will no longer be an option save for a select few champions.


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Sephïroth

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Pvt Piledriver:
Then you haven't actually buffed jungle gold. You've made both jungling and lane farm less rewarding, and with the jungle being made more punishing, these changes are going to hit it harder than lane farm. This also has the effect of basically enforcing GP10s in the jungle since going for ganks early will no longer be an option save for a select few champions.



I disagree that early ganks will not be an option for but a select few. Just because clearing is harder, does not mean you cannot take the high risk high reward of ganking early.

I remember back in the day when Twitch and Evelynn were "Troll picks" and the only way you could successfully play them was to start at red, and gank right after to get that first gank. I'd be interested to see if this makes this done by more champions, actually.


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KesslerCOIL

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
lagNZ:
Are you sure about this?
Because i did a full clear of the jungle once on Live and PBE and ended up with 13-15 more gold on live.
And thats not even considering the fact that it takes longer to kill the jungle on PBE.

EDIT: Redid it. 501g upon complete clear on PBE
514g upon complete clear on Live

Upon doing a second clear after recalling, i ended up with 48 more xp on PBE and gold was about 2g in difference.. but again we must remember that this is mostly because the PBE jungle takes longer.


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Montegomery

Recruiter

11-16-2012

Quote:
Statikk:
We intend for the first clear to be both slower and more difficult (these 2 often go hand in hand).

We don't intend for the overall first clear's gold to be much less than it was before even if it is taking longer.

At the end of the day, we're looking to gauge the impact and power level junglers have on the early game overall not necessarily just gold flow.


If you follow the "standard" route (Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Wolves->Red->Wolves->Golems) the raw value of the camps on Live is 405g versus the PBE's 382g. However, since it takes at least 2-2.5 minutes to clear the extra 36-45g you get passively should make up the difference.

At this point I'm perfectly satisfied that the numbers check out. I don't want to impose on you, but if you could also disclose the gold/exp scaling on the small camps it would save me a weekend of trouble attempting to find the exact numbers myself through testing.

Quote:
Reimie:
You're still nerfing the jungle with ambient GP10 because they are now falling further behind than the lanes are.

The only reason I bring it up is you said you were not aiming for a nerf, but you're making it harder whilst making it less rewarding.

Generally, when it comes to nerfs I feel you guys really know what you're doing.


The jungle isn't getting nerfed relative to laning as lane values also decreased, while jungle scaling has substantially increased. If anything junglers should be able to better keep up with lanes nows.


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Saereth

Senior Member

11-16-2012

I tend to agree, jungle gold scales later, kill gold stays the same. Imo i'm more incentivized to gank early and will simply fall back onto strong junglers that have that ability to do so. From my initial impressions this seems to limit the viability of less common junglers and but a higher emphasis on early ganks and invading until the gold scaling catches up.