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Less Gold in New Jungle

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Leonixxiii

Senior Member

11-19-2012

Quote:
NenSense:
Ganking junglers got nerfed indirectly because they can no longer gank bot lane as easily limiting their options due to the new item that essentially gives free wards which most supports will rush early on (this is my hypothesis based on the current trend of supports providing the majority of wards). If this happens top and mid will buy wards more frequently because they get ganked more frequently since bot lane which is now permanently warded is harder to gank meaning that all lanes are now more likely to have wards = tougher time successfully ganking although you can still apply pressure without successful ganks and ganks will be most effective before the opponent goes back to base to buy wards (within the first 10 minutes or so) after that you will have a hard time finding a lane that hasnt spotted you coming.

Also counter jungle can set the opponent back even more due to better scaling although its more likely to put you further ahead than it is to put the enemy further behind.


Just gonna throw this out there as Bot lane will be about the same as now... Supports will start with 3-4.3 wards now (only gaining that mini ward over live). The Sightstone is 700G, and will be at best the 2nd item after Philo, if not the 3rd, so by the time most supports get it it will usually be about the same time as everyone hits 6, unless they are having a good lane... As for top, and mid they should already be getting wards, so I dont see the change here ether... What Riot should maybe do is lower the cost of Oracles since it has a limited duration now.


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Blazing Pascal

Senior Member

11-19-2012

This is my biggest concern with the new Jungle. I have thoroughly tested the new jungle, and wrote my thoughts on everything here if anyone cares to see: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2815069

In short though, the jungle role has definately been nerfed. Not a ton, but this definitely hurts the jungle role no question. Anyone who has thoroughly tested it will tell you that is true at its current state.
If Riot feels they need to do this to balance the game, then fine... However, I wish they wouldn't sell it as a buff.

Quote:
Statikk:

This way junglers who shift their focus toward farming the jungle efficiently can acquire gold and experience faster.

At its current state, this is not true. And in fact, by the time laning phase is over, you will have aquired about exactly the same amount of gold as on live, but will have spent more gold on pots, not been able to gank and aquire gold through kills/assists, and you have put a significant amount of gold into stats that only help you jungle, and do not help you vs other champs. Not to mention the removal of HoG which many tank junglers relied on for extra gold in the "past".

This is not a rage post. I totally understand Riot wanting to remove the significant impact of top lane ganks and the ease at which many junglers can do it. If they want us to stay farming though and not get as much kill/assist gold, they need to improve the gold in the jungle.

my $0.02


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Affinity2

Senior Member

11-19-2012

I agree with Mcnauty.. in many ways this eliminates the diversity of certain picks and takes away much of the strategy that would come from increased gold income from jungle creeps. Think about it. There should be multiple approaches to go about jungling. the best way to increase the diversity f junglers is to increase the amount of viable roles in the jungler. by creating a farming, counter jungling, and ganking sub-roles you make more opportunities for making different champions viable in the jungle and set particular skill sets on par with others. For example... currently the ganking support jungler that wont die with oracles reigns supreme. However Riot, you have the opportunity to branch out effective roles. Imagine if jungle creeps gave more gold. You could put a risky carry in the jungle maybe irelia? Maybe the other team wants to gimp the other jungler by making there life hell through invading and counter jungling. maybe your not concerned about any of these and just want to set the your teams lanes ahead u can do that. but there should be trade offs for everything. with more ambient gold i dont see the effectiveness of ganking going down. I see better gankers coming into play to make up for the bush and lane changes. will they be more punished from ganking than season two? No. The counter jungler now takes a larger risk for a smaller reward as the jungle creeps are worth less rather than more and the camps are stronger. I dont see any trade off's here only risk. To offset this I am not saying that the jungle camps should give more gold than season two... but at least keep them on par and have better scaling. This should fix the problem and allow many "second tier" junglers to be closer to those in the first.


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Ash Legion Cub

Junior Member

11-19-2012

The only junglers I see being punished by the new junglers are "steal counter-junglers", like Nunu or Shyvana. Counter-junglers that are there to kill the enemy will be as/more effective, because you can starts boots and fight a bootless adversary, since your goal is to get one buff and then go for the hunt.

Some junglers can only gank with their ultimates. This new jungle and passive gold gain, and specially items specific for junglers, enable them no not be a burden (transition into a carry/semi-carry mode by farming) while ulti is on cooldown. Ganking junglers won't lose as much for not clearing their jungler and can itemize to their function. You can rush a Ohmwrecker as Maokai to dominate early and midgame, then transition in a powerful initiator lategame, reducing passivity and those weird mexican standoffs, where you can't push into a tier three because defending enemy team has Anivia.

Since minions award less gold and you receive more passive, as a laner, one, or even two kills may not mean that your lane is lost. You gain gold from a gank not because you can abuse your advantage and beat you opponent over and over, but because you had teamwork and outplayed the opponent, getting him off guard. I think this generates balance and even diversity, because push comps will have a better reason to get turrets down: farming "safely" (closer to your base) won't be a good trade in relation to losing map control.

I think season 3 will be much more vicious than the "double support" (bot lane and jungle) season 2 meta, because when farming means less, ability, composition and teamwork prevails.


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Xyltin

Senior Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Blazing Pascal:
This is my biggest concern with the new Jungle. I have thoroughly tested the new jungle, and wrote my thoughts on everything here if anyone cares to see: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2815069

In short though, the jungle role has definately been nerfed. Not a ton, but this definitely hurts the jungle role no question. Anyone who has thoroughly tested it will tell you that is true at its current state.
If Riot feels they need to do this to balance the game, then fine... However, I wish they wouldn't sell it as a buff.

At its current state, this is not true. And in fact, by the time laning phase is over, you will have aquired about exactly the same amount of gold as on live, but will have spent more gold on pots, not been able to gank and aquire gold through kills/assists, and you have put a significant amount of gold into stats that only help you jungle, and do not help you vs other champs. Not to mention the removal of HoG which many tank junglers relied on for extra gold in the "past".

This is not a rage post. I totally understand Riot wanting to remove the significant impact of top lane ganks and the ease at which many junglers can do it. If they want us to stay farming though and not get as much kill/assist gold, they need to improve the gold in the jungle.

my $0.02


It is a fact that you will get more gold in the new jungle and that the jungle items are pretty strong through the game (stats vs gold).

You don't get really more gold if you theoreticly farm the jungle on live and PBE till the 11th minute.
BUT on live, nobody can farm the jungle. The gold gos to the lanes after the first clear (Bot lane golems, mid laners often start around lvl 4-5 to take wraiths, top has pushed and doesn't know what to do, so he goes and takes the wolves).

On live, a jungler lives from g/10, ganks and now and then some jungle camps.
On the PBE, the jungler has the first 10 minutes to farm his jungle.

It is not a change that effects numbers, but playstyle.
Less ganks mean more offensive lanes (top lane won't need to go into your jungle, cause they overpushed).
Mid will have problems taking wraiths and if they do (not before lvl 6), they will probably lose some CS in the lane (what could result in getting the same amount of gold for mid lane, but stealing your jungle).
ADC + Support will lose some HP when doing golems, especially cause life steal is more expensive nad harder to get now. It will also cost them too much time, if their lane doesn't get pushed to their inner turret.

What is the difference between a jungle you can farm for 10 minutes and one you get to farm for 4 minutes and then you get only 50% out of it?
So after 4 minutes, you get already 100% more gold out of the new jungle if you do it right.

Sure, the chances for ganks are lower and you need to think about ganks again. But perma ganking was an illness of the game. It was stupid.

You can still gank, and the result I saw till now are way stronger ganks after 6-10 minutes. Also the amount of buff control goes up again from each jungler and you can fight an enemy laner 1v1 throughout nearly the whole game (problem only at the first clear till you get B for more items).

Think about S2 and who is a great jungler now?
11-12 champs that can really jungler (Shyv actually not too great, shen and malhpite are normally better top, amumu is situational, cause when he gets counter jungled, he will be useless for the first minutes).
In the end there were around 8 really great junglers (Mundo, Noc, Maokai, Lee, Skarner, ...).
What was the thing they all did? Gank and tank. Be a second supporter.


People say that they get a low amount of gold in the jungle, but if you calculate it through, the lanes don't get that much more money (~10%). The only problem in the S2 jungle was that the lanes stole everything they could get and it was way too easy to do.


2825g is the amount Stonewall got after 11 minutes.
475 is from the beginning and 912 through the pasive g/10.
1387 gold comes from other sources than creeps and monsters.
=> 1438 gold comes from monsters.

A laner gets around 20 (19.5 actually) gold per CS (a bit less now after lane gold was nerfed a bit for more passive gold income).
If you are really good you can make 5 CS per wave (making more is possible, but not likely in the lane, and most people only get 4-5, even pros).
So you get 200 gold every minute (last hitting starts at 2 minutes when the creeps reach the lane, not when they spawn).
So you have 9 minutes for last hitting.
=> 1800 gold.

Jungler: 2825 gold
Laner: 3187 gold (-90 probably for reduced creep gold in the lane => 3097)

Passive gain of these values: 1387 gold

The difference is there, but the laners fight all the time against the enemy, and the jungle is pretty safe (laners invading is risky without the vision).

I think Riot should increase the gold in the jungle a bit, but
+2 for big wraith
+3 for big wolve
+3 for big golem
would be enough.


And that amount doesn't make a too big difference (the increase would be there to make counter jungling a tick more attractive).


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Undtoromeso

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Don't suppose a +1g/Monster(Not minion) passive machete item would work? Like avarice blade for not minions ever.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

12-14-2012

Quote:
Undtoromeso:
Don't suppose a +1g/Monster(Not minion) passive machete item would work? Like avarice blade for not minions ever.

I'd rather see a mastery that gives +5 gold (3 for ranged) for killing the big wolf, big wraith and big golem twin. Take out Scout and replace it with this.