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Less Gold in New Jungle

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Montegomery

Recruiter

11-16-2012

UPDATE:

Statikk has responded several times, but the most pertinent post is this:

Quote:
Statikk:
Here's the current value we have the ambient gold change at:

Ambient Gold increased to 16 Gold per 10 from 13 Gold per 10

Please take this into account if you want to do the calculations.


The difference in raw values between the small camps on Live and the PBE is only 12 gold, whereas the increase to passive gp10 is worth 18 gold per minute. As a result, a PBE jungler farming the small camps will have more gold per clear than one on Live.

Note that lane minions have also lost gold value, so laners do not have any new advantage over junglers in this regard.

----------------------------------------------

OLD:

Gold values in the new jungle are actually, on average, less than they were before. While scaling has increased significantly, this doesn't make up for the decrease until well after the mid-game has already started.

Live:
  • Wraiths: 33g/4g (45g total)
  • Wolves: 44g/5g (54g total)
  • Golems: 40g/15g (55g total)
  • Total: 154g

PBE:
  • Wraiths: 25g/3g (34g total)
  • Wolves: 40g/4g (48g total)
  • Golems: 45g/15g (60g total)
  • Total: 142g

It is difficult to reconcile the reality of this situation with the following statements from Statikk:

Quote:
Statikk:
Next, we’re also going to significantly increase the rewards (gold and XP) and scaling difficulty (health and damage that the monsters gain over time) of the jungle as a game progresses. This way junglers who shift their focus toward farming the jungle efficiently can acquire gold and experience faster. This opens up the jungle to many of the more damage-focused and gold-reliant champions like Master Yi who need to scale into the later parts of the game.

...

  • Wraith camp gold rewards have been reduced and golem and wolf camp gold rewards have been increased to better match their respective difficulty and convenience.


In fact, the Wolves camp has actually decreased in value, and it takes roughly 10-12 minutes for the total value of a small camp clear on the PBE to match that of live. Even at this point a PBE jungler who has been continuously farming will still be behind a jungler on live who did the same. Mathematically speaking it will take another 10-12 minutes for them to pull even on farm.

I highly recommend that Riot reexamine their math, models, and assumptions regarding jungling. As it stands we're close to repeating, and even outdoing, the mistakes of the initial Season 2 revamp.


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Laferge

Junior Member

11-16-2012

Agree with what you said. Jungle looks on first look as it gives you more money as some items (mandreds) are cheaper but truth is opposite. Too much effort not enough reward.


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squidbert

Member

11-16-2012

I think the real question is, what is the XP per minute and Gold per minute in the new jungle versus the old jungle. That's the real comparison. I think you have to also factor in the new items as well.

So try cleaning up jungle for 10 minutes on live, then 10 minutes on the PBE and see how much difference there is in XP and Gold.


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Taiyodori

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Did they change the respawn timer as well, so you can - at least potentially - clear more camps within the same time?
(I know this is highly unlikely early game, due to the higher tankyness of each camp...)


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Felaedor

Senior Member

11-16-2012

First clear != total amount of gold from the jungle.

They specifically said the SCALING would be increasing.


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ImRecordingYou

Member

11-16-2012

Farm the Jungle in S2 from 1-18.

I did this in the new Jungle with Xin Zhao.
33:00+ minutes to hit 18
Ghost Blade, Wriggles, Basic Boots + 5400G extra (3 dragons)


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Taiyodori

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Felaedor:
First clear != total amount of gold from the jungle.

They specifically said the SCALING would be increasing.


However, isn't this still the opposite of making jungle-clearing more rewarding compared to ganking the lanes? At least for the (arguably most important) 10 minutes of the game as a jungler.


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Montegomery

Recruiter

11-16-2012

Quote:
squidbert:
I think the real question is, what is the XP per minute and Gold per minute in the new jungle versus the old jungle. That's the real comparison. I think you have to also factor in the new items as well.

So try cleaning up jungle for 10 minutes on live, then 10 minutes on the PBE and see how much difference there is in XP and Gold.


That's the comparison I've already made. Respawn timers are identical to live, so you can clear the small camps once a minute. Therefore the gold per minute for Live in the ideal case is 154g, while on the PBE it's 142g. The PBE scales faster than Live, but the gold per minute does not pull even until 10-12 minutes after the first spawn, putting the PBE jungler at a significant disadvantage.

Moreover, chain clearing on the PBE is harder due to the increased damage and better health/defense scaling in the new jungle. A PBE jungler will typically clear slower and have to recall more often than a Live jungler, and/or invest more of their resources in items largely concerned with sustain and better jungle clearing. It's very much a lose-lose situation for the PBE jungler.

Quote:
Felaedor:
First clear != total amount of gold from the jungle.

They specifically said the SCALING would be increasing.


I didn't post the data for the sake of brevity, but as I said in my original post it takes 10-12 minutes for the PBE jungle's superior scaling to pull jungle values even with Live. Up until this point the Live jungler will have been gaining more gold per clear, so it will take another 10-12 minutes of farming for their total farm to even out.

So if you're allowed to farm for the entire early game and into the mid-game without stopping, you'll have just as much gold on the PBE as you would have on Live doing the same thing, presuming that the PBE jungler doesn't have to recall more often or invest more in jungle-specific items.

Quote:
lcizzlelc:
Farm the Jungle in S2 from 1-18.

I did this in the new Jungle with Xin Zhao.
33:00+ minutes to hit 18
Ghost Blade, Wriggles, Basic Boots + 5400G extra (3 dragons)


If you're allowed to farm the jungle for 30 minutes you should, so long as your clear times are roughly equivalent (which isn't necessarily a safe assumption), have more gold on the PBE versus Live. The problem being that this isn't remotely analogous to the practical reality of an actual match.


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DJay Saint

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Montegomery:
That's the comparison I've already made. Respawn timers are identical to live, so you can clear the small camps once a minute. Therefore the gold per minute for Live in the ideal case is 154g, while on the PBE it's 142g. The PBE scales faster than Live, but the gold per minute does not pull even until 10-12 minutes after the first spawn, putting the PBE jungler at a significant disadvantage.

Moreover, chain clearing on the PBE is harder due to the increased damage and better health/defense scaling in the new jungle. A PBE jungler will typically clear slower and have to recall more often than a Live jungler, and/or invest more of their resources in items largely concerned with sustain and better jungle clearing. It's very much a lose-lose situation for the PBE jungler.


Which I thought the changes were aimed at making jungling MORE viable as a gold income because as of right now, jungle gold sucks. You rely solely on ganks at early levels for income and gp10s.

Riot said that farming the new jungle will make you more viable and able to impact the game more than a current jungler can because you can actually get farmed while jungling, but it appears to be the opposite.

Basically, they made the jungle camps harder and give less gold than they did before and makes it harder to early game gank because of the extra damage jungle creeps deal and the longer clear times.

Jungle gold was already bad before and basically forced junglers to be a second support since you couldn't get farmed. They already took Heart of Gold out of the game which screwed junglers severely because gp10s were their main source of income, and now they reduced the jungle gold while at the same time increasing camp difficulty. So... what is the point of jungling now then if the gold is even WORSE?

I was excited at first about the new jungle because I thought for once a jungler would actually be able to get farmed and have fun building items like other champs can. Now I'm disappointed because they get pigeonholed even more in to the secondary support job because they get **** for gold, all the while making their jobs even harder than before because camp clearing is more dangerous and ganking early is harder than before.


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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

11-16-2012

We had to slightly lower the gold on the first clear due to the increase of ambient GP10 we put on the map. It seems like we left that undocumented.

I'll get back to you guys with the exact numbers, but once you factor that into the calculations early jungle gold should be very similar. We're not looking to buff the jungler early game in any way, shape, or form. If it's a nerf, then let's fix that.