@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

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Whirblewind

Senior Member

11-18-2012

To continue, I want to pull a quote from Morello earlier to emphasize.

Quote:
The art team's thoughts as a whole may deviate from what I just posted (they know more about forms and shape language than I by miles), but if we do provide variety, and we do provide good alternatives to exposed characters, then from a holistic standpoint, I'd call that successful. If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.


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LouisLeGros

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
^ This.

...

We realize the issue we ran into with Zyra, Syndra and Elise. To be fair I think we probably could have alleviated any "sexy lady" saturation by spacing these characters out a bit, that's cadence stuff. That can be a whole other matter.

We love our archetypes, and we want to deliver on archetypal fantasies where an archetypal character pops up. We want to find elegant and clever solutions and keep things simple. Simple communicates.

There's of course a lot to say on the matter, I've said a lot in the past. What I want to let people know is that we take in feedback like this, despite tone or how it's directed. Where do you think Diana came from? She's the culmination of the collection of feedback I had received over an entire year. I learned from every champion I worked on from Leona to Sejuani. That feedback is listened to, chewed over, and incorporated where appropriate.

That said..

I will say that I am not terribly pleased with the initial tone of this thread. Straight up, there is a perspective into our production pipeline that the average player lacks. What you see now, in any recent content, is usually the culmination of at the very least months worth of work. The very concept art that Morello posted is from a while ago. For you to expect a dramatic turn in some extreme fashion from the point where I posted that gigantic post about female representation in League of Legends isn't feasible just in terms of logistics. Remember Dudepocalypse? Where we had 3 burly guys come out right after another? Those particular characters were a long time in the making and despite players recognizing that indeed, there may be a bit too much Y chromosome consistency, it was already processed through production. Darius, Draven and Jayce came out in close proximity and that was just that. My memory doesn't recollect the exact scenario, but at the time that I posted that essay of mine, Elise and/or Nami were most likely in the middle of production. If that was indeed the case, It would not have been feasible for me to go running and screaming into the art pit and say "OH EM GEE STOP THE PRESSES I TALKED ABOUT FEMALE REPRESENTATION AND ADDRESSED BOOB WINDOWS SO WE CAN'T DO THIS!!!". That would be dumb of me.

Nami's cool. Ship her. Would I have possibly made a different decision in gill construction? Probably! But, there are a thousand ways to solve a problem, this is one solution, and I think it's neat. I think it's elegant, I think it's fresh, and I think it's, above all, a unique treatment to a timeless archetype that breathes life and youth into something that historically has been overplayed and boring. We made the beautiful mermaid princess for our world. That's the deal. We made something that is uniquely League of Legends and we feel it belongs. Will there be plenty of fully-clothed land-based females to steal your heart in the future if this particular solution doesn't churn your waters? Absolutely. I know for a fact. I look at the board every day. That's why I myself aren't causing some sort of hoot, because I kNoW ThE fUTuRe.

This isn't really something that needs to march to the beat of a thousand pitchforks. We've had this discussion, you guys know my stances and you've heard me say it a thousand times. I'm not going to offer promises, you'll be satisfied when you see results that tug properly at your heartstrings. Until then I don't think this has to be anything super hyperbolic. I think we have to look at this in its context, this is part of the depth, breadth, and contrast of League of Legends.

Again, something that is cool that you might want to keep in mind: again, the discussion has snagged the attention of two fairly notable people at Riot, Morello and myself. That should show that we do look, we do listen, and we do incorporate. There is literally an open forum to come at us with feedback. I want to take a moment to recognize how special that is and why it makes me so happy to be involved in this community. The fact that I can listen to so many voices from across the world and directly help to improve our game is absolutely amazing. I think that it should be kept in mind.

We're critical thinkers here and we think very critically about what we make. What's neat is that I can take this information, again, and return with it to my colleagues, discuss it in the open, point to specific discussions or particular arguments. I want to let you know that I am thankful for this community and the opinions it expresses. I want to know what people are thinking, so when we can take the opportunity to embrace and integrate feedback, we do it.

Syndra, Elise, Zyra. Lessons learned. I don't need a reddit graph to tell me what's up. Nami and champions to come, I have faith. I see course correction and critical analysis of player feedback internally. Oh how I wish that the insight people like myself and Morello have on the process could be shared. You'd know that every time someone gives us a valid opinion that it causes wheels to turn, despite not being completely visible to the external eye. This stuff does travel, it does get discussed.The last time we had this discussion our art director became directly involved in responses. How cool is that?

Will you be pleased with absolutely everything coming forward? **** no! You're going to love some things and hate other things. That's what depth, breadth and contrast is all about. Find what you love, embrace it and let us know. The wheels turn. They turn slowly. But slow turning or not, discussions like this are the grease those wheels always need to stay moving.

It's your choice in terms of a character like Nami. Is she my solution? No. Is she an elegant solution? I feel she is. Do I think that within the larger context of fulfilling the fantasy that players wish to embrace when they take the roll of a face-melting mermaid princess? Absolutely. That is the larger picture, that's the silhouette we deal with, proverbially speaking. Too much do we dwell sometimes on internal details, I feel. Take a step back, look at the entire picture, squint your eyes and see if it works from a distance, from the standpoint of a fantasy as a whole. In the case of Nami I think that she fits. I think that she has a place. I think she'll be part of our world.

Thanks for the response that tackles a bit more of the meat of the discussion than the Little Mermaid song that went past my head earlier (which I'm sure plenty of people who remembered the film better than I greatly enjoyed).

I won't say that I dislike Nami's design, I just feel like her design is currently just "good" and is close to being great and being exactly what so many people who are dear fans of champions like Leona & Diana have been waiting for with all of the talk about adding more variety to female champion design and addressing the perceived oversexualization. My disappointment with Nami so far isn't that I think she is horribly off mark like Elise was with her human form, but because of how close she is to be exactly what I've wanted. I like her when I wanted to love her and this got me into the discussion on the matter.

Given this a lot of the vitriol in this thread and other discussions has been out of place from both sides and as a community we shouldn't be so negative and derisive to each other. Sure there has been a lot of sexist drivel that deserves a smacking upside the back of the head, but that isn't an excuse to be so condescending and to assume a lot of terrible things about Riot or people who don't agree with you.


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Assyrianlegend

Senior Member

11-18-2012

so its 2 AM in the morning, why are YOU guys up? :/


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ChaosWookie

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assyrianlegend View Post
so its 2 AM in the morning, why are YOU guys up? :/
Hmm, I live in Florida... so it's actually 5:57am here
**got up, ta get ready for work ^_^


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
It would not have been feasible for me to go running and screaming into the art pit and say "OH EM GEE STOP THE PRESSES I TALKED ABOUT FEMALE REPRESENTATION AND ADDRESSED BOOB WINDOWS SO WE CAN'T DO THIS!!!". That would be dumb of me.
Why not? Why can't we, for once, have someone say STOP THE PRESSES, THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM, and fix something NOW? Why does it all have to be SoonTM? Elise ended up with a splash art and costume design that was sexy spider woman and not high-class cultist hi-priestess with a silver tongue. Nami is a nice design but arguably resulted in a less than optimal theme (though something I will say is that aside from my complaint, she is very nice and well-done)

I'm not saying Riot should be run like this, it's chaos and no one would get anything done. But exceptions would be nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotWithoutTophat View Post
now for Nami and Elise, it's "omg, why do they have cleavage?!".
We're not complaining because they have cleavage, we're complaining because it makes no sense for them to have the size or prominence of cleavage for what they are (nami arguably less so, but w/e). Elise was, as stated above and before many times, not a seductress or woman of the night type person at all in her lore, so why is she made to look that way?


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Rekka777

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

As irrelevant as this may be, I prefer flat chests =3


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Cryswar

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Why not? Why can't we, for once, have someone say STOP THE PRESSES, THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM, and fix something NOW?
because it's stupid. This is a ridiculous issue, being vastly overblown by an extremely vocal minority not representative of the community's overall views, and you twits think that if you yell loudly and often enough that makes you "right" and stupid malarkey like this a "legitimate issue."

Reminds me so very much of when three ostensibly generic tanky dps males came out and people were using the exact same logic you are - and not only did they turn out to be wrong (hi, draven) but once those three were finished, Riot moved on to more interesting things. Instead of acting like a spoiled child, why not wait and see what the next champ or three is like?


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Whirblewind

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
We're not complaining because they have cleavage, we're complaining because it makes no sense for them to have the size or prominence of cleavage for what they are (nami arguably less so, but w/e). Elise was, as stated above and before many times, not a seductress or woman of the night type person at all in her lore, so why is she made to look that way?
Right, so anybody with large breasts seduces people or is a prostitute?


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Datavore

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quick note:
I really, really like Nami's voice right now. Just for the record.


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Shinrasaa

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Why not? Why can't we, for once, have someone say STOP THE PRESSES, THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM, and fix something NOW? Why does it all have to be SoonTM? Elise ended up with a splash art and costume design that was sexy spider woman and not high-class cultist hi-priestess with a silver tongue. Nami is a nice design but arguably resulted in a less than optimal theme (though something I will say is that aside from my complaint, she is very nice and well-done)

I'm not saying Riot should be run like this, it's chaos and no one would get anything done. But exceptions would be nice.


We're not complaining because they have cleavage, we're complaining because it makes no sense for them to have the size or prominence of cleavage for what they are (nami arguably less so, but w/e). Elise was, as stated above and before many times, not a seductress or woman of the night type person at all in her lore, so why is she made to look that way?
And why not? Would it make sense with her lore to have her in full body armor? Her "real body" is that of a giant spider, it wouldn't make sense for her to wear anything like that. Apart from that, this is a fantasy game. Of course women and men would be designed to be pleasing to the eye. I generally agree that more ugly or monsters or covered up females are needed, but Elise as a whole looks good and makes more sense than her original design.

As for Nami, she is a mermaid. Those are seductresses, so I don't understand why you complain about her. Apart from that, when I see a new champion, I don't look at the cleavage or boobs or if she is covered up or revealing, I look at the face, the abilities and either I fall in love and play him/her or not. A lot of people do not care about the cleavage or "oversexualisation" as long as the overall design is cool.

So yeah, why change what thousands of people fell in love with? IronStylus has promised different types, but he can't just snap his fingers and make it happen. Your concerns were already heard. However, what you are trying is to make every female into a concept you guys like. You don't have to like every released champion, there is place for every kind of design in LoL.