@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

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mtrx005

Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogonk View Post
What people like, or what LoL players like?

It seems like the answer is the latter, and that's self-perpetuating: if you design with the target audience of lowbrow teenage boys, you can pretty much guarantee the majority of your audience will always like your designs, because the majority of your audience will always be lowbrow teenage boys. Is that the idea?

As for whether you're interested in the conversation, it's hardly surprising to find you're not. A straight cismale who isn't interested in how women are portrayed in media? That's about as shocking as a middle class white person in 1950 who doesn't care about the civil-rights movement. It's about what I'd expect. But whether you're interested in knowing about the consequences of your actions or doing the right thing, this doesn't go away because you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that there's no such thing as ethics in entertainment.
so much this


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-18-2012
14 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogonk View Post
Yeah, you guys have done well at delegating the job of dealing with the discontent over this to people who seem to actually care.

Of course, ultimately you just trick people into thinking that Riot as a whole cares far more about this issue than you actually do, which isn't even a good PR move except in the very short term. Misleading players about how Riot sees this only works until they figure out you're just lying to them.

Your posts in this thread, combined with IronStylus, go a long way towards establishing once and for all that most reds don't care.
We have more than the 10 most known people at Riot, and we're by far not the biggest decision-makers in the company. That's just normal to any organization. I pretty much said my piece - I don't think I could be more straightforward if I tried.


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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Edit magic. Fun and light is good, 12 is a bit far
I think this voice actor is Riven's, right?

She's really good. I actually liked Nami's voicework -- she sounds kind of surfer girl in an entertaining way. Surfer princess. But perhaps it would fit the art better with some audio editing.


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Vanthiar

Member

11-18-2012

I do agree that, once in a while, a more Diana/Leona-esque champion would be nice. There is nothing wrong with this so-called over-sexualization (Which is certainly not a word...)
Nami looks fan-damn-tastic.
IronStylus, you are forevermore my favorite Rioter ever. Sorry all runner-ups.


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mogonk

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I pretty much said my piece - I don't think I could be more straightforward if I tried.
I agree.

You see the hypersexualization of female forms in LoL as an issue of marketing - only relevant in the sense that your audience likes it or does not. This is a fundamentally amoral position. As a writer for Stormfront I could use that exact same reasoning to determine that racist polemics are acceptable, even advisable, because my audience seems so pleased by them.

You were quite clear.


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Aliandra

Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's hard, because I'm trying to understand one thing and one thing only from my POV: how much does this actually, really matter to players or potential players.
It bothers me quite a bit that the go to in the video game world is sexy women abound, while men get to be the hero types. I complain to my husband about it fairly often.

I however will not stop playing the game since (as a life long gamer) I know this is just how things are.
It is just something I have to accept at the moment if I want to play good games, but that doesn't mean it doesn't irritate the hell out of me and I don't occasionally get loud and obnoxious on the subject.


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

11-18-2012

And what about more non-human females? Alistar is male. Cho is male. Corki/Heim/Rumble/Teemo/Ziggs are male. Fid is (arguably) male. Galio is male. Hecarim is male. Karthus (if he counts) is male. Khazix is male. Koggy is male. Malph is male. Maokai is male. Mordekaiser is male. Nasus is male. Naut is male. Noc is male. Rammus is male(?). Renekton is male. Rengar is male. Shaco is male. Twitch is male. Volibear is male. Warwick is male. Wukong is male. Xerath is male. (that was leaving out anything quasi-human and hybrid human+x)

In contrast, for females we have Anivia, Orianna, Lulu, and Trist.


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Lord Graves III

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Senior Member

11-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
my POV: how much does this actually, really matter to players or potential players.
The extent to which I care about this issue really is that its kinda hard for me to bring in women gamers who might otherwise like the game when the classy female characters can be nearly counted on one hand.

Shyvana, riven, diana, leona, ashe, irelia, lux, (my subjective opinion etc etc)

Not counting children, yordles, birds.

As for Swain being an Archtype to steer away from, I would counter with that from an IP and lore perspective he is possibly your most interesting character. Though yeah, tactician doesn't come across so well in game.

My 16 year old sister was curious about the game I spend so much time playing, but then I remembered the log-in screen at the time was elise, and decided I would be better off waiting for a new log-in screen to come out to try and teach her.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

11-18-2012
15 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is the valid conversation to pursue, because it speaks to variety as opposed to the moral foundations of sexualization or offense. I think this is the variety of silhouette that IronStylus refers to when we say we need to take a look - Zyra, Elise and Syndra have more similar form language that doesn't help the character jump off the page as much (even though the characters are designed to be different) and be memorable, where I think Diana does have that language.

You will see some old types of archetypes that we've learned from - sufficiently "derpy" (without good humor or cuteness) or unappealing archetypes (old, crippled man who is supposed to be a tactician but is just a bird-wizard) aren't something we'll go towards, but finding what replaces them is the interesting part - and importantly how to make it both cool and differentiated.
^ This.

...

We realize the issue we ran into with Zyra, Syndra and Elise. To be fair I think we probably could have alleviated any "sexy lady" saturation by spacing these characters out a bit, that's cadence stuff. That can be a whole other matter.

We love our archetypes, and we want to deliver on archetypal fantasies where an archetypal character pops up. We want to find elegant and clever solutions and keep things simple. Simple communicates.

There's of course a lot to say on the matter, I've said a lot in the past. What I want to let people know is that we take in feedback like this, despite tone or how it's directed. Where do you think Diana came from? She's the culmination of the collection of feedback I had received over an entire year. I learned from every champion I worked on from Leona to Sejuani. That feedback is listened to, chewed over, and incorporated where appropriate.

That said..

I will say that I am not terribly pleased with the initial tone of this thread. Straight up, there is a perspective into our production pipeline that the average player lacks. What you see now, in any recent content, is usually the culmination of at the very least months worth of work. The very concept art that Morello posted is from a while ago. For you to expect a dramatic turn in some extreme fashion from the point where I posted that gigantic post about female representation in League of Legends isn't feasible just in terms of logistics. Remember Dudepocalypse? Where we had 3 burly guys come out right after another? Those particular characters were a long time in the making and despite players recognizing that indeed, there may be a bit too much Y chromosome consistency, it was already processed through production. Darius, Draven and Jayce came out in close proximity and that was just that. My memory doesn't recollect the exact scenario, but at the time that I posted that essay of mine, Elise and/or Nami were most likely in the middle of production. If that was indeed the case, It would not have been feasible for me to go running and screaming into the art pit and say "OH EM GEE STOP THE PRESSES I TALKED ABOUT FEMALE REPRESENTATION AND ADDRESSED BOOB WINDOWS SO WE CAN'T DO THIS!!!". That would be dumb of me.

Nami's cool. Ship her. Would I have possibly made a different decision in gill construction? Probably! But, there are a thousand ways to solve a problem, this is one solution, and I think it's neat. I think it's elegant, I think it's fresh, and I think it's, above all, a unique treatment to a timeless archetype that breathes life and youth into something that historically has been overplayed and boring. We made the beautiful mermaid princess for our world. That's the deal. We made something that is uniquely League of Legends and we feel it belongs. Will there be plenty of fully-clothed land-based females to steal your heart in the future if this particular solution doesn't churn your waters? Absolutely. I know for a fact. I look at the board every day. That's why I myself aren't causing some sort of hoot, because I kNoW ThE fUTuRe.

This isn't really something that needs to march to the beat of a thousand pitchforks. We've had this discussion, you guys know my stances and you've heard me say it a thousand times. I'm not going to offer promises, you'll be satisfied when you see results that tug properly at your heartstrings. Until then I don't think this has to be anything super hyperbolic. I think we have to look at this in its context, this is part of the depth, breadth, and contrast of League of Legends.

Again, something that is cool that you might want to keep in mind: again, the discussion has snagged the attention of two fairly notable people at Riot, Morello and myself. That should show that we do look, we do listen, and we do incorporate. There is literally an open forum to come at us with feedback. I want to take a moment to recognize how special that is and why it makes me so happy to be involved in this community. The fact that I can listen to so many voices from across the world and directly help to improve our game is absolutely amazing. I think that it should be kept in mind.

We're critical thinkers here and we think very critically about what we make. What's neat is that I can take this information, again, and return with it to my colleagues, discuss it in the open, point to specific discussions or particular arguments. I want to let you know that I am thankful for this community and the opinions it expresses. I want to know what people are thinking, so when we can take the opportunity to embrace and integrate feedback, we do it.

Syndra, Elise, Zyra. Lessons learned. I don't need a reddit graph to tell me what's up. Nami and champions to come, I have faith. I see course correction and critical analysis of player feedback internally. Oh how I wish that the insight people like myself and Morello have on the process could be shared. You'd know that every time someone gives us a valid opinion that it causes wheels to turn, despite not being completely visible to the external eye. This stuff does travel, it does get discussed.The last time we had this discussion our art director became directly involved in responses. How cool is that?

Will you be pleased with absolutely everything coming forward? **** no! You're going to love some things and hate other things. That's what depth, breadth and contrast is all about. Find what you love, embrace it and let us know. The wheels turn. They turn slowly. But slow turning or not, discussions like this are the grease those wheels always need to stay moving.

It's your choice in terms of a character like Nami. Is she my solution? No. Is she an elegant solution? I feel she is. Do I think that within the larger context of fulfilling the fantasy that players wish to embrace when they take the roll of a face-melting mermaid princess? Absolutely. That is the larger picture, that's the silhouette we deal with, proverbially speaking. Too much do we dwell sometimes on internal details, I feel. Take a step back, look at the entire picture, squint your eyes and see if it works from a distance, from the standpoint of a fantasy as a whole. In the case of Nami I think that she fits. I think that she has a place. I think she'll be part of our world.


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LORDBIGDOGGIE

Junior Member

11-18-2012

@Morello
...or anyone RIOT really...
please take 2 minutes to watch this video "Miss Representation" which can explain the issue much clearer than I can. In my opinion RIOT has paved the way for free games. LoL is a free game that is financially successful, why can't you break a little more out of the mold? Just a little.

http://vimeo.com/18985647#at=0