I'm trying out the new jungle in the pbe

First Riot Post
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MerryLane

Junior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That's the breakpoint we're using currently since early gold gains aren't bad here - the later game ones are tragically low though. This may need adjustment as we look more, but it's a reasonable starting point.

Additionally, we do expect a bit more gold on "safer" junglers since they disrupt less for ganks.
The biggest problem I see with the actual S3 jungle, it's not :
-that the difficulty is higher,
-that you have to start machete
-that you get the same gold than in S2 up to 11 min

Nope, the problem is that you relegate junglers into farming for 15 mins so you can get gold to spend in jungling items (exagerating) that are not as useful for real fights.
The problem is that you adjusted the global ambient gold up, but yet junglers will do the exact same money than before while laners see their income rise...

What is it sposed to mean?

And a last question, why can't you let some junglers lvl up + get gold as fast/a bit faster, than laners? SOME junglers.


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

11-17-2012

It's apparent the gold doesn't favor farming junglers enough, especially early, and Ganking AoE junglers are just as strong, which goes against the intended changes. Riot needs to consider increasing the early gold from monsters with the same/better gold scaling as it is now on PBE, but make the monsters scale by high amounts through toughness and damage so Champs without good sustain or machete upgrade will suffer from sustained jungling. Also add in a factor where AoE begins to do slightly less damage as the game progresses (along with some MR scaling), so AoE tank junglers who rely on Magic damage begin to lose effectiveness.

Also the ambient gold needs to decrease, since a higher innate gold gain means Champions who camp lanes take less of an impact because they're not missing out on as much gold as the jungler who is farming the higher gold jungle. Essentially with the current changes, farming junglers potentially gain a small boost, but ganking and control junglers get a major boost, which is not what the Jungle changes were meant to adjust


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Morello

Lead Designer

11-17-2012
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MerryLane View Post
The biggest problem I see with the actual S3 jungle, it's not :
-that the difficulty is higher,
-that you have to start machete
-that you get the same gold than in S2 up to 11 min

Nope, the problem is that you relegate junglers into farming for 15 mins so you can get gold to spend in jungling items (exagerating) that are not as useful for real fights.
The problem is that you adjusted the global ambient gold up, but yet junglers will do the exact same money than before while laners see their income rise...

What is it sposed to mean?

And a last question, why can't you let some junglers lvl up + get gold as fast/a bit faster, than laners? SOME junglers.
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.

The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.


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Averath

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Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
It's apparent the gold doesn't favor farming junglers enough, especially early, and Ganking AoE junglers are just as strong, which goes against the intended changes. Riot needs to consider increasing the early gold from monsters with the same/better gold scaling as it is now on PBE, but make the monsters scale by high amounts through toughness and damage so Champs without good sustain or machete upgrade will suffer from sustained jungling. Also add in a factor where AoE begins to do slightly less damage as the game progresses (along with some MR scaling), so AoE tank junglers who rely on Magic damage begin to lose effectiveness.

Also the ambient gold needs to decrease, since a higher innate gold gain means Champions who camp lanes take less of an impact because they're not missing out on as much gold as the jungler who is farming the higher gold jungle. Essentially with the current changes, farming junglers potentially gain a small boost, but ganking and control junglers get a major boost, which is not what the Jungle changes were meant to adjust
Though I may be mistaken, didn't Riot mention they intend to check on champion balance once the jungle has been established? Though it appears that they've not done nearly enough as far as gold gains go for junglers, they may be able to change some champion balance around to some degree.

I'm not 100% sure, but didn't Lee Sin's passive originally get nerfed because of his jungling speed? The new jungle may warrant buffing it up again. Who knows, as that is just an example.


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SargeantAnonymos

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.

The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.

Are other item costs going down and will we be seeing overall gold decreases in the game?


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GoneWithTheWind

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.

The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.
But do you see where we are coming from?
The way the gold gain increase is designed as of this point will make it benefit the laners, and not the junglers.

Currently junglers -need- to gank, so they get enough money to stay competitively, but with these changes even minimal jungle will be a lot harder, and we're forced to gank even earlier to make up for the difference..


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Stonewall008

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.

The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.
Has it been considered to perhaps up the respawn time on the small camps and add more gold to them similar to how it was in season 1?


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BelligerentGnu

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.
I suppose more aggressive, trade-y lanes are fun, but won't this a) decrease the game skill cap and b) push farming laners, like ashe or kog, even further out of the meta?


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall008 View Post
Has it been considered to perhaps up the respawn time on the small camps and add more gold to them similar to how it was in season 1?
This aspect of S1 is what created the abundance of ganks. You didn't lose anything, because you had 30-60 second gaps before you could continue farming.

S2 fixed that, by making there always be a trade-off in order to gank. Failed gank = missed out on gold and xp.

So, while I definitely think further balancing needs to be done, I sure hope they don't change respawn timers at all.


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Pokeprof

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Senior Member

11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.

The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.
So, at the moment, the 2825 gold that Stonewall was seeing is actually closer to what Laners are currently getting now? So instead of bringing junglers up, you brought laners down so, by relation, Junglers 'have more gold?'

Ehhh, kinda not what we expecting