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Nami - feedback and questions thread

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Ginga

Recruiter

11-16-2012

Quote:
Healsforhugs:
They don't have as much CC as Nami has. Champions with high amount of CC with good AP ratios who take a solo lane are extremely hard to deal with in team fights (release Zyra / release Lulu).

What they lack in CC they make up for in other areas, such as CC and outright damage invulnerability, shields, and speed buffs.


Also, MORGANA doesn't have as much CC? Morgana, the one with the game winning ultimate?


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Kchaosrei

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Classick:
This is something I've thought about a lot, one idea we've thought of is a more debuff heavy support where their AP ratios scale the duration of their debuffs as opposed to damage. More than likely Nami will have her AP ratios reduced some, but we don't want to make purchasing AP feel like a complete waste.



But building AP is a complete waste. You (roit) say that supports are not supposed to build damage iteams but team supportive iteams. That this is the best way to play support then you dangle raitos that will never be tapped. Since it is to expensive to buy iteams like death cap. Litterally the game would have to go an hour thirty to see a death cap. And then everyone would stil say it was a waste for the support to do that.

A support should be someone that can build without ap raito/damage iteams and shine. By teasing with 60% ratios supports will always look and say i could do more damage but i am forced to build x and y or yelled at.

the base damage on supports are to low cause roit has to take the ratios that 95% of supports will never use in a real game(ARAM does not count). But cause 5% will try to use these raitos the base values are considered in line with possible builds.

New players are effectively being tricked by this misleading viablity and good players are being punished for playing the role and helping there team. Great way to send mix msgs to the players on how to play these toons.

If the desire to give ap raitos to supports is so strong but still want them to get ageis and stuff like that(which roit has constantly said the the supports should be doing). Give deminishing returns on AP iteams. Beasicly if u hit 150 ap your raitos drop. if u hit 250 ap another raito drop ect. this way you are still hitting harder but u are kept in line and will allow for more base values.


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Healsforhugs

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Ginga:
What they lack in CC they make up for in other areas, such as CC and outright damage invulnerability, shields, and speed buffs.


Also, MORGANA doesn't have as much CC? Morgana, the one with the game winning ultimate?


Yes, that makes them very good with AP, which is why they go mid more then they support.

Support morgana can't just go into 5 enemies and ult and get 5 stuns off on her ultimate, she'd explode. AP morgana with ROA/hourglass can. Support morgana and AP morgana are played drastically different. I'm not sure what your definition of "game winning" is, but there are better ultimates out there.

Typical mages (and the most popular supports) who go support have long range (not melee) AOE CC ultimates.


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Resq

Junior Member

11-16-2012

I think Nami needs buffs to much cd's to be a support imo , mana coast so high as-well, just does not feel right to ME.


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Ginga

Recruiter

11-16-2012

Quote:
Healsforhugs:
Yes, that makes them very good with AP, which is why they go mid more then they support.

Support morgana can't just go into 5 enemies and ult and get 5 stuns off on her ultimate, she'd explode. AP morgana with ROA/hourglass can. Support morgana and AP morgana are played drastically different. I'm not sure what your definition of "game winning" is, but there are better ultimates out there.

Typical mages (and the most popular supports) who go support have long range (not melee) AOE CC ultimates.

And that's what makes those champions so much better than other supports.

They're fully capable of branching out into other roles and not be a complete waste of gold.

Sending Lulu to mid is nothing but pure idiocy now that her ratios are garbage, she might as well stick in bot lane where her abilities are practically the same whether she's farmed or not. Imagine if instead of the Carry, you as Lulu or Sona just so happen to have scored all of the kills. You can't even make terribly good use of the gold compared to all other members of your team.

Lulu is an example of terrible champion design. She's about as useful fed as she is unfed. Pigeonholed so fiercely into 0 cs support.


Kayle, Morgana, Lux, and Zilean are well designed champions. If you want to babysit the carry all day, you're free to play 0 cs. If you want to farm up and have some fun, you're also free to solo lane or jungle. They're capable of being 0 cs, BUT if they happen to "steal" enough cs or get fed off champion kills, they can actually make use of the gold. Nobody cares if you feed a Sona, she'll be marginally better than an unfed one.


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phar0ah1

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Lol, I just tested out Nami as support bot and I actually like her character. The only thing that gets me are the mana costs. She can go OOM pretty quickly so mana regen is at the top of the priority list for her. Sure support isn't as fun as laning but overall I really like this champ. I think she could hold mid depending on who she is up against. Also, I would definitely recommend leveling her Q and W, depending on the situation over her E. It may just be because she is new but 9 times out of 10 her E buff was wasted because my laning team mate would engage then disengage while they had the buff.


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CalmSnorlax

Junior Member

11-16-2012

I see a lot of people complaining about Mana costs, there are a giant selection of items for supports that give a bunch of mana regen. One of them being Kage's Lucky Pick + Mana Manip. The other bring Chalice of Harmony + Sapphire Crystal, which itself gives a max health % based targetable heal aswell as acting as a targetable cleanse.

As with any new champion a mix of new rune pages/masteries should be tried. Personally I run Mana Regen yellows, and I run 22 in support, skipping the little biscut and ward and focusing on the mana regen/extra gold and XP.

If you land a Q in a teamfight (Which seems to move like Galios) You will need to be towards the front of your line, or the enemy will have to be coming into you. Your ult has a long cooldown and makes it good for chasing, it seems alright for initiating but it's not a stun or anything and right after the short knockup people like adc's can still attack (Unlike a Leona/Sona stun.)

Try building the new support items instead of AP items, and you don't have to spam all of your skills in lane. I max E first and drop a single point into Q and W. Gives your adc the advantage in poking/chasing while still giving you the small burst of heal in a trade and the CC to completely stop damage.



I'm sure some changes could be done to her, but right now she seems like a solid support who actually can stay in the backline and use her skills to either help intiate or peel brusiers/hypercarries off the backline.


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Healsforhugs

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Ginga:
And that's what makes those champions so much better than other supports.

They're fully capable of branching out into other roles and not be a complete waste of gold.

Sending Lulu to mid is nothing but pure idiocy now that her ratios are garbage, she might as well stick in bot lane where her abilities are practically the same whether she's farmed or not. Imagine if instead of the Carry, you as Lulu or Sona just so happen to have scored all of the kills. You can't even make terribly good use of the gold compared to all other members of your team.

Lulu is an example of terrible champion design. She's about as useful fed as she is unfed. Pigeonholed so fiercely into 0 cs support.


Kayle, Morgana, Lux, and Zilean are well designed champions. If you want to babysit the carry all day, you're free to play 0 cs. If you want to farm up and have some fun, you're also free to solo lane or jungle. They're capable of being 0 cs, BUT if they happen to "steal" enough cs or get fed off champion kills, they can actually make use of the gold. Nobody cares if you feed a Sona, she'll be marginally better than an unfed one.



What is wrong with having champions who are only good in one role? There are champions only for jungle, top, mid, ad carry, why not support? Why is that so wrong?

Edit: If a support gets fed in the bot lane (they shouldn't), if they itemize correctly they will be a bigger help to their team that a underfed support would. That is what you get when a support gets gold. Which is the direction Riot wants to go with giving supports more gold and item options.


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CalmSnorlax

Junior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Healsforhugs:
What is wrong with having champions who are only good in one role? There are champions only for jungle, top, mid, ad carry, why not support? Why is that so wrong?



I think the problem he has is, with champions like Sona/Lulu being forced into support, and not being able to deal damage if they get "fed" is the fact they could buy all their items like Aegis, Randuins, Shurelias, and even the new support items that help aid in shutting other champions down.



You need to do damage to be a team player yo' </sarcasm>


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Whelk

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
CalmSnorlax:
I see a lot of people complaining about Mana costs, there are a giant selection of items for supports that give a bunch of mana regen. One of them being Kage's Lucky Pick + Mana Manip. The other bring Chalice of Harmony + Sapphire Crystal, which itself gives a max health % based targetable heal aswell as acting as a targetable cleanse.

As with any new champion a mix of new rune pages/masteries should be tried. Personally I run Mana Regen yellows, and I run 22 in support, skipping the little biscut and ward and focusing on the mana regen/extra gold and XP.

If you land a Q in a teamfight (Which seems to move like Galios) You will need to be towards the front of your line, or the enemy will have to be coming into you. Your ult has a long cooldown and makes it good for chasing, it seems alright for initiating but it's not a stun or anything and right after the short knockup people like adc's can still attack (Unlike a Leona/Sona stun.)

Try building the new support items instead of AP items, and you don't have to spam all of your skills in lane. I max E first and drop a single point into Q and W. Gives your adc the advantage in poking/chasing while still giving you the small burst of heal in a trade and the CC to completely stop damage.



I'm sure some changes could be done to her, but right now she seems like a solid support who actually can stay in the backline and use her skills to either help intiate or peel brusiers/hypercarries off the backline.


The problem with building for mana regen items just to make a specific champion work, is there's already a bunch of fully viable supports which don't need those items and can instead build into better utility sooner.

That being said, I'm hoping a lot of the mana issues I'm running into with her are purely bug related, as some people have speculated, because as of now, she has too little bang for the mana buck, especially early game.