Zed Analysis

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

St Viers

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foomps View Post
Taken from http://dd.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegen...with_pictures/ credits to the original author

As far as his playstyle goes, I think he's extremely fun. I've always enjoyed playing highly mobile champions, especially if there's an element of deception to them (Wukong, Shaco). That being said, in his current state he doesn't seem to flow very well. His energy costs are very high, and on a cooldown-based champion that requires chaining your abilities in rapid succession, this is an extreme weakness.
At a risk of arguing semantics, I'd say that he isn't a very mobile champion. He has great maneuverability, but his mobility isn't greater than most. (Very briefly, I'd say that flash like things give maneuverability, ghost like things/ flashes on short CD give mobility). His kit isn't about mobility, its about effective use of space for a short term benefit. Also, as he gets back energy for properly using w, the energy costs are only high when are trying to constantly poke with q (or lead your w into them to poke at long range with q) or spamming his e. He's rewarded for conserving his burst, and laning it properly, and punished for not doing so. I'm not saying that the punishment isn't slightly too high, but given how strong he would be if he could just spam q and shadow e all day, it makes sense.

Quote:
After playing him pretty extensively today I've realized that, given this aforementioned weakness, his teamfight presence is virtually non-existent. You ult into a fight, combo your abilities, and immediately have to disengage with either Flash or Living Shadow or risk dying. In the time it takes your energy to regenerate, the fight is over and your team probably lost because they were down a player.
If you properly combo yoru abilities, you should have plenty of energy left. Also, it's worth pointing out that you don't need to Ult in most teamfights. WIth CDR and blue buff (as you should have from being mid) you can actually get 2 qs and 2es off of 1w. That gets you very strong damage from a safe range, and gets you much of the energy back quickly.

Quote:
Other than that, I've noticed that for a high mobility champion, he has a very hard time sticking to targets. His only crowd control is a slow that requires you to waste your escape to fully utilize, and, given how small the range is on his E, isn't entirely likely for it to land anyway. In my experience, if your ult is on cooldown, chances are you're not going to be able to catch up to someone running away from you unless you burn Flash. This is a bit of a problem.
This is why I would not call him high mobility, but highly maneuverable. His role isn't to chase someone for a kill. It's being able to effectively dive into a grouped team, kill the carry, and trick his way around enough for his team to act without him immediately dying. (you have 2 flashes to play with if you juke with both his ult's clone and his w's).

Quote:
As far as Living Shadow goes, I love it. The cooldown is rather long, which seems to hold him back a lot, but given the utility it provides it's fully understandable that Riot would want to err on the side of caution. The mind games you can play with this ability are insane. You can throw out a shadow, make enemies think you're going to juke them with it, and then just continue running while they turn to head towards your shadow. There's also the obvious usage of using it to scale walls which makes Zed extremely slippery when being chased. I'll have to play and practice with it more before I can utilize it fully, as is the case with any ability as versatile as this. That being said, it's an extremely fun ability in general. I look forward to learning the ins and outs.
Remember that the CD can be reduced by hitting enemy champions with e. This again helps him alot getting in and out of a group, but sadly doesn't help him chase people down/escape for prolonged runs.
Quote:
Now for counters... Well. It sucks to say it but Zed has a lot of counters. Champions with hard CC (stuns, knockups) shut him out of fights completely. Your standard bruiser setups top lane (Irelia, Jax, Darius, Jayce) will be able to not only out-sustain him but out-trade him consistently. He has no answer to champions like these and should generally be played mid or in the jungle (though his ganks are very weak unless the champion he's ganking for has their own CC) as opposed to top. AP bruisers (Ryze, Swain, Cho'gath) will also give him trouble mid, so watch out for those as well.
Yeah, mid is definitely the place you wanna put him. Unlike most counter mid ad casters, he doesn't need to rune for mana regen, or buy an early chalice for that, which gives him more versatility. I'd hesitate blind picking him because of your absolutely true point about brusier APs, but as a counterpick, he's definitely a solid choice for many mids.
Quote:
Playing against Zed is pretty simple. Avoid his damage as best you can until he's out of energy and then all-in. Bait him into small skirmishes so he either has to use his abilities risk dying to your harassment over time. His energy costs are obscenely high and unless he plays extremely conservatively he will have no response to an assault like that. His only options will be to disengage using Living Shadow or Flash, or die outright.
I don't mean to pick, but your advice on how to play against Zed assumes a vast skill difference between the players. WIth proper use of w and e, hitting with his q isn't too hard, or costly. It's like hit confirming in a fighting game. use w. If you'll hit your e, use it. One they are slowed, easy hit with kunai. I think the biggest problem with Zed isn't mana cost or anything, but his effective range. To maximize use, he wants to be in a range where both his e and his shadow's will hit. This makes for really easy energy conservation, max damage from q, and the ablility to then auto to trade. To get into that range you need to be able to commit to taking an auto attack or two. Luckily, he has no mana, and can come into mid with more mr than others (due to not needed mana regen runes), so he can afford to poke with q (not using shadow) to trade/waste their mana, and make it less risky to go into optimal range.
Quote:
I don't know. A lot of my initial thoughts may be incorrect, but I think that after my games with him both in 3v3 and 5v5 I've got a good feel for his strengths and weaknesses. I don't think he's at all competitively viable in his current state but don't let that stop you from having fun with him. Under the right circumstances and when played well he can be an incredibly effective pubstomper as well as an absolute blast to play. In the end, though, only time will tell if he can become anything more than a situational burst assassin.
Here I agree with you in part. I think that until the items change, he won't be super useful in *ranked* summoner's rift. Competitive play would make him more viable, as you'd be able to maximaze his strengths (great damage, high maneuverability, and strong lane from being energy over mana) with a team that knows how to help you most--I just think that with the slew of tournies on old patches, top players can't really be bothered thinking of him until these tourneys are over/they get a grace period to catch up.

As for 3s, I feel that itemization for him is much better, but the primary strat of 3 bruisers makes it harder to play him. Against teams that actually run a less bruiser-y comp, he's perfectly able to find a place.

EDIT: for a less in your face look, check out my own analysis at http://st-viers.blogspot.com/2012/11...ts-on-zed.html


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

HunterHagen

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenants View Post
This is pretty accurate and correct. Reduce his W cooldown fairly drastically to make him really viable in any lane or role is a must have.
His cooldown on his W is easily lowered by his E. 1 second shaved off per enemy hit with a low cd aoe is very good.

The problem is energy. As of now, the best experience I have with Zed is with jungling or mid (as the OP has stated) simply because he has access to blue buff or doesn't have to deal with bruisers in lane. If he does have access to blue, his clear time is immensely fast.

That said, he's a pretty good jungler. Opening up with a slow to gap closer with an ult that will lose tower aggro is great. Past that, he's fine until late game, and OP has already explained this.

Thus, I suggest Zed needs better energy gain (or lower costs). The energy return on W is a good start, but it needs to be bumped up significantly. I have no good supporting reason for this, but I am also in favor for giving his ultimate a longer cast range.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Foomps

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-15-2012

looking forward to see what riot does with zed next patch


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

St Viers

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudedInSanity View Post
His ult has too short of a range. His ult does such little damage for an assassin burst type of champion. His E should ALWAYS slow. His Shurikens are fine. His shadow has far too long of a CD.

He energy starves himself all day.

Not sure how this champ got out of PBE...
His ult actually does strong damage (check my blog post for damage calc based off 300 AD Zed), the problem with it is either you've already killed them (wasting the ult) or you give them time to QSS the mark or zhonya's through the detonation, making it like a single target vlad's ult.

Thanks to the nature on energy, it's not possible to energy starve yourself in lane unless you are trying too hard too harass without taking damage (when you can trade damage instead, which deals more damage for the cost, and spends their mana, which can't come back as fast as energy). Why waste w->q to deal 90ish damage at level 2 when you can either just q, or make sure that you are in range to get the shadow clone q AND your q to hit (w-ing past the enemy/forming a triangle rather than making a line where w can hit them with it's q without you taking the damage).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Pawstruck

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Shoulda tested this champion a bit longer... the concept is good, but as many have said the number values are way off. Energy costs are INSANEly high, and he gets almost nothing in compensation for it. It'd be fine if he was oom after a full combo if that combo killed someone!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

St Viers

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BanditManSteve View Post
He just feels overall weak imo. His top lane presence is pretty meh, jungle is fast with decent ganks, really weak ult. His skill shots dont pay off like other champs do. He also has to be VERY picky about when he enters a fight, because if you just jump in onto the carry, your dead, unlike champs liek talon who can esccape with ult. Here is what i say:

Buff ult, its too weak, and very unconsistent. Buff ratios or base damage on q and E. I realize he has unlimited resources, but unless your target builds straight glass cannon with no sustain, its going to take WAY too long to poke them down. Do something to make his passive useful too. Right now he doesnt have a passive unless you get them below 50%, and then you hit for a small amount of magic damage. Its weak and dismissable.

Its a real shame that his high skill cap doesnt come with high reward, because hes hella fun to play.
hitting your q with both you and your clone is the most damaging poke type q in the game (compared to champs like panth, cait, kennen, etc) really only challenged by nid spears and zilean double bomb (the latter of which waste mana far worse than an energy champion can waste energy)

from my blog post:
Quote:
For a fun diversion, lets look at Zed's burst damage. His optimal burst Seems to be (factoring in 40% CDR) E->autoattack->W->R{Q->E->autoattack->}E->Q->autoattack, and this takes a grand total of 5.2 seconds. That's 1245+4.4bAD+3AD+{261+1.15bAD+1.5AD}. Assuming 300 AD (190 bonus AD), that's...1054.5+1350+1505=3909.5 damage (excluding ignite, and blade of the ruined king like effects), which is pretty good on paper. Of course mistiming that slightly will reduce the damage some, or not filling in skill cds with auto attacks, but still.
As long as you keep blue on you, and get cdr (I think you need 35% to be able to double q off a singe w), he has amazingly high burst.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MadSeer

Senior Member

11-15-2012

So far he dominates in 3v3 and Dominion, I now have to try him in a 5v5 game. I think Zed's really gonna shine when the new items come in. He's far from being a bad champion and his damage output to a single target is massive. Once the new items hit I think all you'll need is a Bloodthirster and a Sword of the Divine on Zed, then grab Frozen Mallet, Guardian Angel, Last Whisper.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Covenants

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterHagen View Post
His cooldown on his W is easily lowered by his E. 1 second shaved off per enemy hit with a low cd aoe is very good.

The problem is energy. As of now, the best experience I have with Zed is with jungling or mid (as the OP has stated) simply because he has access to blue buff or doesn't have to deal with bruisers in lane. If he does have access to blue, his clear time is immensely fast.

That said, he's a pretty good jungler. Opening up with a slow to gap closer with an ult that will lose tower aggro is great. Past that, he's fine until late game, and OP has already explained this.

Thus, I suggest Zed needs better energy gain (or lower costs). The energy return on W is a good start, but it needs to be bumped up significantly. I have no good supporting reason for this, but I am also in favor for giving his ultimate a longer cast range.

12 second cooldown...reduced by 1 MAYBE 2 seconds if you happen to hit 2 champs with the insanely small hit range, still leaves u exposed/dead after jumping on a carry in the teamfights. The fact that once you jump on the carry and ult+shadow to try and burst the carry can just flash away and take little to no damage leaving u dead with nothing to show for it.

He needs a cooldown reduction on W no doubt about it, and in another thread the argument is made to add a stifle/stun/snare effect to his ult to allow him to do his job. Since its sitting at a 120second cooldown I think that would be an awesome fix.

Hes a fun champ, and I think hes a stones throw away from a good balance.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Felaedor

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenants View Post
12 second cooldown...reduced by 1 MAYBE 2 seconds if you happen to hit 2 champs with the insanely small hit range, still leaves u exposed/dead after jumping on a carry in the teamfights. The fact that once you jump on the carry and ult+shadow to try and burst the carry can just flash away and take little to no damage leaving u dead with nothing to show for it.

He needs a cooldown reduction on W no doubt about it, and in another thread the argument is made to add a stifle/stun/snare effect to his ult to allow him to do his job. Since its sitting at a 120second cooldown I think that would be an awesome fix.

Hes a fun champ, and I think hes a stones throw away from a good balance.
W cooldown double dips from CDR. If you're not getting a crapton of it on him, you're doing it wrong.

Just so you know, minions count as targets for W CDR on E.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Covenants

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felaedor View Post
W cooldown double dips from CDR. If you're not getting a crapton of it on him, you're doing it wrong.

Just so you know, <minions count as targets for W> CDR on E.

are you positive about this? While that fact is nice during the laning phase(if its accurate), doesnt help a whole lot mid/late game during teamfights. And I understand that CDR is important just using the base stats as examples, since thats how you would compare it to other champs, like Kats shunpo (9second cooldown)

I think adding the extra effect to his Ult tho is the more important fix. With the amount of dashes/blinks/flashes on competitive champs right now makes zeds ult+combo virtually useless in cordinated teamfights.


12