Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Here's an opinion; Elise bruiser Solotop... Up and coming to be a top contender.

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IConquer1101

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Downvote me if you must, but at least post why you would disagree with me. And be warned, because this will be a fairly drawn out post.

Basically, It is my personal opinion that Elise Top will become one of the top picks/bans for the solotop lane if left in her current state. However, I've found that not too many people have quite the same playstyle in the lane when using her, and thus her power level isn't well-known.

The basic principle is this: She is a mage with good harass, but she turns into a bruiser who can trade on even grounds when closing the gap. This means that she has total lane dominance that, when played correctly, will either lead to enormous map pressure or a relatively fed bruiser that will make up for her lack of teamfight skills with brute force.

To accomplish this, even though you're building as an AD bruiser, you max your Q first for the large amount of harass instead of your W for the steroid. The steroid is good, but you won't be using it until the actual teamfights to try to dps your target. During laning, you focus on using your Q to take potshots at your opponent and you avoid autoattacking him to prevent minion aggro. At level 2 you take your first point in E, then it's R>Q>W>E. For starting items, you start with boots, 2 hp pots, and 1 mana pot to fuel your harass. 2 mana pots If you're feeling especially confident about the matchup (for example, against singed or warwick who have no reliable way of returning the harass).

When you get to level 4 or 5 (ideal time, since your opponent will not have their ult but you'll have your whole kit to work with), you begin zoning your opponent with a human form spell rotation, a Q/W attack against them, and if they run you chase for a moment, close the gap with E, Q them again, then transform and toss another spell rotation before you turn around. If they choose to stay and fight, it's possible that you'll be able to finish them off since you have many more skills and you've been whittling them down with your harass. For her build, she doesn't need any AP to be a significant threat in the lane, so you can best start off with defensive boots depending on matchup and a phage. Then, depending on matchup, you can build frozen mallet, wit's end, and then whatever defensive items you want. Frozen mallet is strong on her because it allows her to stick to her target to get the full use of her W, and wit's end is strong on her because it synergizes exceptionally well with her W (both spider form, and why she's viable as a bruiser).

A basic principle of why the bruiser build is preferable is that when you build that way, there's no real reliable way of building to mitigate her. If you build MR, her harass will suffer but her ability to trade in straight up fist-fights will be greater, since her spiderlings deal physical damage and her steroid enhances her attack speed. If you build Armor, her many spells will be tearing straight through you. Even if you take that in mind and build straight HP, it will mean both her Q's will be dealing a bit of extra damage. this is part of what contributes to her laning dominance.

I've made a similar thread about how I believe she is strong, but I've had much more experience with her in the lane since then. I will share only from experience her matchups with other champs. They are as follows.

Cho'gath: He's one of the only red flags that I've come across, but he was fought early on in the development in my build. His sustain is quite potent, and will be able to shrug almost all of your harass. I found myself running oom against him when he was only at about half hp. If I were to play the matchup differently from what I did, I would wait until level 3, where I have two ranks in my Q, before starting to harass him so that he doesn't completely outdo it at levels 1 and 2. His lane is strong against hers because he is capable of sustaining and avoiding her harass at range.

Darius: A somewhat easy matchup from how I saw it. Her Q outranges all of his skills, so you're free to play with him however you want. If he gets to far into your minion line to try to grab you, you're able to launch a spell rotation and then jump on him in spider form to force him to fight you with minion aggro. If he backs off, you can transform again and hit him in the back with more spells, but if he doesn't your spider form E can actually be used to avoid his ultimate. It's a tricky matchup, but that's the nature of fighting against darius.

Garen: If she can do it against darius, she can easily do it against garen. And that's what happened. Basically, garen's kit has nothing that can stop elise. Her stun isn't stopped by anything garen can do, and her rappel can avoid most of garen's judgement. And aside from that, he's helpless against her harass.

Irelia: Elise's spider form kit is strikingly similar to Irelia, but weaker in damage and sustain in exchange for having huge harass potential. Basically, elise wins this lane by harassing whenever possible, and then when irelia has to close the gap, irelia can't make use of hiten style because elise will stun her for half of it and rappel for the other half. Elise's big advantage in this is that elise's steroid is not what she uses to win trades, but rather all of her other semi-spammable spells.

Jarvan: This guy is always helping, and this lane is no exception. He can't avoid her harass, he can't run away from her easily, and he can't even trap her in his cage. Not much to say here, but he's worse off than garen is in the lane.

Jax: This is an interesting matchup that I was able to play more than a couple times. While it may seem that jax would counter bruiser elise for the same reason he counters irelia, bruiser elise does not actually rely on autoattacks. If jax opens with counterattack, she'll stun, walk away, wait for his stun to go off, and then turn on him and give him some pain. If he saves his counterattack for trades, she can simply rappel up before his stun goes off, then land back down on top of him. But as a melee, jax also suffers from the weakness that he can get zoned by elise's Q.

Kha'Zix: An interesting case, because she is never isolated. Because of this, she forces kha'zix to evolve anything but Q first, and that weakens his ability to deal damage in lane. Without a big threat of damage, elise gets to bully him out fairly easily. He's still capable of fighting her with an evolved W because of multliple targets to heal off of, but her harass will still outdo that.

Lee Sin: A very fun matchup when I played it. Lee can bounce in and out of the fight, but elise can also toss him a present every time he's nearby. Lee's harass is actually fairly good at range, and that makes it tough for elise. Against him, she has to be more careful (even sometimes going as far as starting boots 3 hpots if she feels it's necessary). However, her trading potential is still very good and will be able to hold her own against a lee very easily. I feel like this one is a lot more of a skill matchup than a lot of other elise lanes.

Nasus: His vulnerability to your harass is very high, but so is his sustain. This is basically the same as the cho'gath matchup... except he can't sustain at range. For this reason, you'll have a much easier time of taking him out. One thing about him is that it's a lot easier to hop into spider form for that extra short range Q without being punished than it is against other champs, and you'll really need to. His sustain, while it can't outdo your harass, will be a pretty heavy drain on your mana before you can kick him out of lane.

Nidalee: One of the more even matchups I've faced. I don't know exactly what they maxed (assuming heal) but the nidalee matchup is fairly good. She has good harass and good trades, to the point where elise's main advantage is that nidalee's Q is blocked by spiderlings. The lane was a close one, but I found that elise's ability to trade in spider form is greater in exchange for nidalee's greater escapability.

Nunu: He's a little scary. While he's vulnerable to your harass, if he decides to max his snowball you'll be just as vulnerable to his return fire. In addition, if he decides to max his consume, he'll be far out-sustaining your best efforts to harass him. I haven't actually fought him on summoner's rift, but on the new TT he was able to kick me out of lane. I feel that for this reason, you must do your best to avoid letting him control the bushes. This matchup is either a skill matchup or a farm lane, but I'm leaning towards nunu advantage for this one.

Olaf: I've fought 3 different olafs, and I've seen him build two different ways. The only way I haven't seen him build was the super-sustain passive olaf, so I can't quite make a judgement on that. But when he maxes E or Q for ranged or melee trades, you have a fairly big advantage in lane; Your Q is longer range than his E, and you can easily dodge his axes. your W, even at levels 1 and 2, will outdo his steroid if he doesn't put points into it. I haven't seen him max the steroid first, but I feel that if he does that then the harass might be too much for him. In any case, the matchup favors elise once again because of her bully-status harassment.

Poppy: She's a toughie for this one. The interesting thing about the matchup is that, while she's just as vulnerable as anyone else to elise's harass, her passive will end up mitigating a large percentage of everything elise throws at her. Since elise's strength is that she's hard to mitigate, poppy's passive fits right in. I feel that if poppy's passive was on a champion who wasn't that vulnerable to ranged harass, she would be a perfect counter to elise. But in this case, poppy is a good choice to hold on in lane, but will be whittled down when left alone.

Rengar: Suffers the same way as garen and co. While he is able to close the gap a lot easier than anyone else, he still has to deal with the stun, burst of two spells, transformation and then spider onslaught. Since his sustain relies partially on using his Q, he'll either be harassed down or zoned to the point of cs'ing with E. His sustain is good, but doesn't out-do her harass.

Singed: Singed is a delicious snack to elise, and I feel that elise is a natural counter to even the principle of singed. She can actually bully singed away from the minions, and because of that she delays his rod of ages by quite a bit. The reason this is so is because he's completely helpless to retaliate against her, and if he manages to toss her into his poison, she can just rappel out of it. Singed is another champ who she can easily get away with sneaking in free spider Q's.

Teemo: I'm unsure if the teemo was experienced, but it was a delicious experience to harass this guy out of lane. He was building bruiser teemo, and since elise doesn't need to autoattack to trade, her Q + minion aggro will outdo teemo's blinding dart and poison shot. In addition, since her strength in lane is not in autoattacks, blinding dart was ineffective against her. I do not know how well AP teemo preforms against her, but AD teemo is outclassed in harass and trades by elise. God it felt good to destroy him.

Warwick: Another nasus lane, but with slightly better harass. Warwick might be able to beat your mana bar in sustain, but I've found that she is still quite powerful in that regard. It's very important in this matchup to not harass with autoattacks, because if he catches you in his ult during a gank it's lights out. So you don't want to push. This lane was won, but I'm unsure if it's not a skill matchup.

Wukong: He's a very intersting lane. While he shares the characteristics of other bruisers without harass, he does have a very intersting mechanic for avoiding harass in his decoy. I find this to be a skill matchup, but the skill matchup is more in that if wukong is skillful, he will be able to stay in lane with elise and avoid dying to harass.

Zed: I've only fought 2 so far, but I found that their early game harass can be slightly strong. However, elise will quickly outscale zed in base levels, and if he builds glass while she builds her HP items, she'll quickly outdo zed. I can't make a proper judgement, since zed builds haven't been refined yet, but I can say that AD zed doesn't work well against bruiser elise.


Opponents I haven't yet had the opportunity to play against, but am Interested in seeing the results: Akali, Galio, Gangplank, Jayce, Kayle, Kennen, Malphite, Pantheon, Renekton, Riven, Rumble, Shen, Yorick. I'll continue playing more and more elise and I hope i'll get an opportunity to play against these champions. Some I feel will be easy victories and others i'm completely unsure of.

Now, I feel like reminding everyone that elise is not a pure bruiser. You can't just run up to someone in spider form and expect to be able to kill someone. if both are at 100% hp, anywhere from levels 1-6, you'll probably lose the straight brawl. That is why it is important to start with harassing with Q. The enemy champion usually has to be at about 1/3 to 1/4 hp before you could finish them off with a double Q+ignite.

In later stages of the game, her power drops off. In exchange for lane dominance, she falls off a bit in teamfights. The frozen mallet helps, but in teamfights it is difficult for her to close the gap without using her big escape tool. You can easily fix this problem by having someone with good initiate, or by attempting to hit a stun in human form before switching over. One big strength is that she's an excellent choice for tanking a tower in a tower dive, since she can get rid of tower aggro at will with her rappel.

And finally... I want to encourage people to try it out. I want to hear opinions about this and how people do when playing with this playstyle.

Also, my fingers need a break.

Tl;dr: Elise top bruiser is strong, but don't treat her like a classic bruiser. Bully your opponent with ranged harass and win the laning phase decisively. My fingers hurt, the end.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Primanocte

Senior Member

11-14-2012

She's insanely good top lane. Frankly I was shocked at how much they buffed her this patch because she was so good top lane.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Grann Brigitte

Senior Member

11-14-2012

She is a great laner, uncontestably. But the rest of her game is so...ugh.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PickleChutney

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Nice post. Kudos.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Balkai

Member

11-14-2012

Win Lane, Lose Game
She suffers from Yorick syndrome, except Yorick has more utility lategame


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Asrrin

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Her ranged harass is nothing more than a tickle if you build her AD bruiser. Build her AP bruiser more akin to Rumble for better success. In fact, her item build path is completely unique. I've had great success with getting lots of Mpen on her, Nashor's tooth, and then defensive AP items like Rylai's and Abyssal.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Halkkirgamed

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Yeah i fought a solo top elise as Rengar, not cute, so anoying, i think they gave her too much tankynes on spider, because as a mage she should be rather squishy compared to a bruiser, but she was taking very little damage and she went full ap


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IConquer1101

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Asrrin:
Her ranged harass is nothing more than a tickle if you build her AD bruiser. Build her AP bruiser more akin to Rumble for better success. In fact, her item build path is completely unique. I've had great success with getting lots of Mpen on her, Nashor's tooth, and then defensive AP items like Rylai's and Abyssal.


It's not really a tickle since you still have to factor in her base damage and the fact that it scales on their HP. In levels 1-9, her Q scales beautifully as a harass tool and later on, when you've probably finished a wit's end or frozen mallet, your W starts to kick in to win all of your trades.

I've tried building different variants of AP, but I've found that she gives a lot of her tankiness up to do that, and she needs the tankiness when she transitions into the late game.

I would imagine, however, that in an extreme late game scenario, her tanky AP build might outdo her bruiser build, but I've found that she loses a lot of midgame presence building that way.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arclune

Senior Member

11-14-2012

This is going through my head.

TL;DR: Elise is the AP stacking equivalent of Jayce.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IConquer1101

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Arclune:
This is going through my head.

TL;DR: Elise is the AP stacking equivalent of Jayce.


That's one of the reasons I'm very intersting in laning against jayce, though I haven't yet had the opportunity.


12