@Xypherous: Blackfire Torch

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axesandspears

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Xypherous, here are some simple questions:

Deathfire Grasp previously dealt % health magic damage on hit, and it was changed to its current active state when it became obvious that the concept was overpowered.

1. Why did you make Blackfire Torch, which has the same problem as the original Deathfire Grasp?

2. Why are both Deathfire Grasp and Blackfire Torch available on the same maps?

3. Is Blackfire Torch going to be removed when it proves itself to be overpowered, if it turns out to be unbalanceable, or it proves too difficult to balance to be worth the effort?

It just seems silly to me that there are several item concepts that have already been thrown out because they were imbalanced, and yet here you are trying to balance them again.


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-14-2012

As best as I understand it, Mages are generally in tier 5 in Dominion for their lack of dueling potential and reliance on farm+vision for continual harass, so were jumping on things and 1v1 and 2v2s happen regularly they are at a sever disadvantage, especially against Tanky DPS. The logical step to solve a weakness to Tanky DPS and lack of farming income (at least before fights start happening) is to make an item that is capable of countering Tanky DPS while offering a well-rounded set of stats, so HP shred makes sense there. So I'm fairly certain the reasoning for the item has something to do with that. Also, it's better to try and fail than not do anything at all, at least you get data and feedback when you try new things.

Unfortunately it's better on most AP scaling Tanky DPS ATM, especially ones that utilize AP (typically designed for burst) for sustained damage (usually found on AD).

Best solution I can see for allowing greater flexibility with AP items concerning on-hit effects is to just give the actual abilities champions have a visible On-Hit Effectiveness field (there is currently the discrepancy with AoE and Single-Target spells for Rylies and Spell Vamp, and in some cases DoT for things like Blackfire). Skills like Poison Trail just need to have as minimal synergy with such effects as possible for the vast majority of abilities to be more customizable through itemization - there are to many variables in the range of abilities available to avoid abuse cases.


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Khalahn

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

It's a matter of the %health shred being a DoT instead of a massive burst. The fact that DFG could deal 50% of your max hp instantly was the problem.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalahn View Post
It's a matter of the %health shred being a DoT instead of a massive burst. The fact that DFG could deal 50% of your max hp instantly was the problem.
A spammy or dot-based champion still gets a ton of extra damage from this item though. The only thing that has changed is the exact %, and if that was the only problem then Deathfire Grasp would not have been reworked like it was.

The mechanics at play here are very abusive on some champions. I do not think the fact that the damage is dealt in a dot is enough to mitigate that effect.


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Sonic Nova

Senior Member

11-14-2012

I personally don't see an issue with this item, it deals 5% of the targets current HP over a few seconds, as opposed to blade of the ruined king's passive which deals 4% of the targets current HP INSTANTLY. Since abilities have CD as opposed to autoattacks (which can be easily solved with increasing MS, as opposed to CDR). Overall, I find that it's less powerful than its AD counterpart, and it doesn't scale with AP and champs that use this item won't receive healing from this item when they build spell vamp. Overall I see this item as being decently balanced, and it only has presence when used against full HP targets, low HP targets don't suffer as much from this item. The passive also doesn't stack, so bursting down a target will still only result in the max 5%-of-current-HP damage. I know that it is easy to get targets to lower HP with this item, but past a certain point it significantly drops off in damage output.


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Rasmenar

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Nova View Post
I personally don't see an issue with this item, it deals 5% of the targets current HP over a few seconds, as opposed to blade of the ruined king's passive which deals 4% of the targets current HP INSTANTLY. Since abilities have CD as opposed to autoattacks (which can be easily solved with increasing MS, as opposed to CDR). Overall, I find that it's less powerful than its AD counterpart, and it doesn't scale with AP and champs that use this item won't receive healing from this item when they build spell vamp. Overall I see this item as being decently balanced, and it only has presence when used against full HP targets, low HP targets don't suffer as much from this item. The passive also doesn't stack, so bursting down a target will still only result in the max 5%-of-current-HP damage. I know that it is easy to get targets to lower HP with this item, but past a certain point it significantly drops off in damage output.
Singed, that is all.


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Muspelheim SN

Member

11-15-2012

Not having been around when DFG did % total HP on every cast, my big concern about Blackfire is that it has CDR on a manaless item. Wasn't the reason they removed CDR from the most recent version of DFG because they decided they didn't like CDR on manaless mages?


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Kanderas

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelheim SN View Post
Not having been around when DFG did % total HP on every cast, my big concern about Blackfire is that it has CDR on a manaless item. Wasn't the reason they removed CDR from the most recent version of DFG because they decided they didn't like CDR on manaless mages?
Yes but that was for SR, the dynamic on TT is so radically different that manaless Champs having CDR is not especially powerful like it is on SR.

But I really don't see the problem with it. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is moaning because Riot handed mages an item that actually gives them a right to be on TT, instead of just Bruisers vs Bruisers. And I mean, sure, it is particularly powerful on some champs, but they're the ones Riot made it for and balance it accordingly. Like how Pillager is powerful on AD casters, the intended recipient of the item. BFT wasn't made for LeBlanc, it was made for Teemo, Singed, Cass, etc.


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TheOneMillion

Senior Member

11-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelheim SN View Post
Not having been around when DFG did % total HP on every cast, my big concern about Blackfire is that it has CDR on a manaless item. Wasn't the reason they removed CDR from the most recent version of DFG because they decided they didn't like CDR on manaless mages?
No. It was not the reason. Have you seen the new DFG? CDR is back on.


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Nykidemus

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Having played around with BFT a few times, on several different champs, I'm really not that impressed. The dot isnt that heavy - I'd really rather have a rylais or a RoA most of the time.

The only thing it's really got going for it is that it's fairly cheap, and builds out of Catalyst.