Fix Blackfire please

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konfetarius

Senior Member

11-14-2012

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For the other things you guys bring up, YES, I will eventually talk about those, and YES, I will involve the community in finding a solution.
Any chance of getting one of the GD styled big posts by reds on the upcoming S3 changes? Just overall direction and vision for planned Dominion changes.

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As a rebuttal, what was the purpose of BFT in the first place?
O.K., be fair, he already said that. It's to lure people into playing mages by giving them a shiny OP toy.


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zarbiz

Senior Member

11-14-2012

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I've already talked about this in another thread. There is a lack of infrastructure to actually support any knowledge percolation.

For the other things you guys bring up, YES, I will eventually talk about those, and YES, I will involve the community in finding a solution.
Nome studied tanking under Morello.


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FioraIsMaiWaifu

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11-14-2012

I've been a fan of yours since you worked on Heroes of Newerth. I think you're a swell guy and I love Dominion, so it is natural for me to want to help you. I don't speak for the entirety of the Dominion community, but I'm sure there are individuals that share my opinions.

DominateDominion is a very passionate community. If you haven't reached out to them then I suggest you do so; letting such a resource go untapped is foolish. The players in that community aren't the top 0.001% and you're going to be able to get a wide range of views from them. The thing that they do share is a love for the map.


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Originally Posted by RiotNome
What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players?
Incentivize players to play the map. There is no ranked mode right now. While a lot of people say that is for the best, I wholeheartedly disagree with these individuals. The reason that I disagree is because it shows to the outside player, one that is unaware of DominateDominion, that there is no 'high level' competition occurring on the map. Riot doesn't support the game mode as long as ranked is a missing option. There is no visible reward for playing the map that cannot simply be earned in another game mode. If I want IP then I can play bot games. If I want a badge, or a cool trim, or an icon, I play SR. What does Dominion get? Nothing special. People aren't being rewarded for their dedication and that seems like it would be a barrier that prevents newcomers from being interested in the map.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome
What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%??
This is a difficult question to address. I don't think that the live team that works on SR has even fixed this issue and they've had a significantly longer time to fix such issues. It shouldn't be about fixing everything for everyone, mainly because such a goal seems lofty and unobtainable, but instead making the quality of life better for people as much as possible.


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Originally Posted by RiotNome
What would you suggest we do to convince everyone that's quit on Dominion to come back?
Start doing previews for changes to Dominion. I can look at the forums and see numerous red posts that are extremely open about changes coming to SR. Why aren't people doing the same thing for Dominion? You need to put a focus on the map if you're determined to have people interested in it. For example, I enjoyed the bomb NPC idea that you had. The approach was totally unique from anything I'd ever heard of before. Did you test it? How did it test? What were the results? How about some new items? We know that SR is getting all of these nifty new items that provide all of these benefits, but when am I going to stop seeing Frozen Heart being built on a majority of the champions frequently played on Dominion? You have cool ideas for issues. Present them to the community. Stop withholding information from us. We want you to succeed in this endeavor.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome
How do we message to players that Shaco isn't the best champ on Dominion?
What is the significance of this statement? People play what they're going to play. Does Shaco have an overwhelmingly higher rate of use than any other champion on the map right now?


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Originally Posted by RiotNome
How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression?
Progression in the game or progression in general? I'll need you to specify for me.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome
The lack of game phases?
There are game phases, but they're more like 'gold phases' or 'champion phases' than they are anything else. I'll use a pretty common example here. Yorick sees a lot of use in the bottom lane and his early to middle game isn't at all bad. He really dies down once his build has been completed and it is at this point that (most) ranged carries are able to truly defeat him.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome
The lack of differentiation from game to game?
Increase champion viability. Get rid of this ridiculous armor penetration aura so that certain champions aren't reducing your armor by absurdly high amounts, or fix the champions that synergize with it so well. Wukong with a Last Whisper, Brutalizer, masteries, the debuff from Crushing Blow and the aura basically trivializes armor. Make interacting with the minions more important than it is right now; I cringe each and every time I see a Jayce Mercury Cannon Q -> E a minion wave. Create interesting gameplay interactions, like the bomb NPC, that force players to confront each other. Get rid of the ten minute duration Teemo mushrooms that deal damage, prevent ganking, capturing unprotected points and reduce interactivity between players in the jungle. Fix Revive so that the majority of the top rated players aren't running it. That single spell creates the biggest false choice on the map.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome
These aren't buzzwords. This is the reality of Dominion. We're in do-or-die mode. If you really love Dominion, then subscribe yourself to the program and dig down deep. The rug's going to be pulled out from beneath your feet over and over again, and you'll have to get used to that.
I'm ready for whatever changes you can produce to make this map better. I plan on sticking with it through thick and thin. I'm in for the long haul. The reality of the situation is that there are a lot of individuals with the same resolve out there. You talk about digging deep and my response is to reach out to people. Do you want to discuss Dominion with me in a more private setting? I'd love to pick your brain; I'm readily available on the game. I'm ready to dig deep. Are you?


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Dreampod

Senior Member

11-14-2012

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I've already talked about this in another thread. There is a lack of infrastructure to actually support any knowledge percolation.

For the other things you guys bring up, YES, I will eventually talk about those, and YES, I will involve the community in finding a solution.
Talk to the live designers about how gameplay changes in normals and ranked both immediately and for longer after major tournaments on SR. After every tournament I see major changes in champion picks and playstyles based on what was successful in the tourney, regardless of whether players can actually pull it off at my level. Tournaments supported by Riot that get in-client notice generate large amounts of viewing and a consequent change in play. Ranked mode is the first step necessary to hold a Dominion tournament that actually has established teams and shoutcasters that know what is happening. I'm just a casual Dominion scrub and my skills are far behind my SR skills, because I haven't had the opportunity to see how Dominion ought to be played and aspire towards that.


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Sauron

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Apologies if things got answered while I was typing this reply to your post.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
And what changes are those?
Communicate with your players. We have no idea what you're doing behind the scenes other than working on new items, but the current items released have been controversial. Please use us as a wall for feedback, it's what we're here for.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players?
0). A ranked queue would stop that immediately, but that's not a logical point because it's pre-season.

1). Champion changes to increase the importance of scaling, and reducing base numbers -- champions like Kassadin have been changed like this but it was nowhere near enough. Keeps the champions in roughly the same strength on SR but changes them for TT and Dominion. This would adjust the top "far and away" set of OPs and help the lower champions perform in the map, as champions like Kassadin are hardcounters to many.

2). Defensive items should be the first things to target. Ninja Tabi's, Frozen Heart, Randuin's, Thornmail... they're too darn good in mode that you get free gold and don't need offensive stats to lasthit or contest objectives. For MR, why would I get FoN?

3). Crystal Scar Aura adjustments, in particular changing back the chalice effect because the reduction only hurt champions who were already struggling. This somewhat goes hand-in-hand with FH being so OP on bruisers that it's a core item for them regardless. If defensive items are changed around, bruisers can furthermore be kept in check by removing the passive penetration and moving that to offensive items.

4). Some matchmaking adjustments to help premades get matched against premades, and solos get matched against solos -- from what I've seen that's what has been causing the largest amount of ragequits from the mode, and the primary driving force behind asking for ranked. Probably not the game designer's field, though.

5). Possibly making draft queue the only queue for Dominion. Again, probably not the game designer's field.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%??
I don't have access to insider statistics. Well, not often, anyways. I'm not one to vouch for a game to be balanced strictly for high Elo or top level play or whatever we want to call it. Shaco and Akali don't need nerfs, for example, but countermeasures to them could perhaps be more forgiving for unskilled players -- try this:

New Oracles' Extract -- 150 gold
For 90 seconds, your champion can see stealthed units. This does not expire if killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
What would you suggest we do to convince everyone that's quit on Dominion to come back?
At this point, only ranked will bring back old competitive players like mollica that quit early this year. Removing blind and forcing draft queue would bring back many people who have left since around Spring, back when people were giving up on Riot for not putting dodge penalty back in for Dominion (which eventually happened). Then there's the group of people that left when ratings were hidden in the Lulu patch, halting our ability to run an unofficial ladder. Then there's finally the people who are ready to leave because of BFT, but later in your post here you say you've nerfed it, so now perhaps they won't.

So to convince people? Not your job, really. Dominion needs publicity and matchmaking/queue changes to make people come back. The best you can do is to respond to player ideas and admit fault, and it will redeem the mode in the eyes of some players who left because they felt ignored or betrayed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
How do we message to players that Shaco isn't the best champ on Dominion?
Slow champion contribution to point captures/neutralizes, and backcapping will become much less prevalent against random/unskilled teams and mobility wouldn't be so hugely important. It would also make minions a bit more important. Having an actual guide or index of guides stickied to this forum would also help promote visibility and positive promotion for Dominion, and would help Dominion guides get around some more.

Making Oracles' Extract a bit better would also help lower Elo players because right now you're punished heavily if you're buying it and you're not skilled and getting outplayed. Additionally, there are other effects one could try on an item such as a consumable that softcaps bursts of damage while not doing anything against smaller packets (like a less powerful Poppy passive).

Alternatively, replacing blind with draft queue would allow people to just ban him out. The presence of bans generally causes shifting of metas, which would help lower Elos a lot. They'll eventually realize there are champions more worthwhile to ban because Shaco can be countered, and then they'll take the opportunity to play Shaco themselves once the opponents are aware of the counters and then they'll understand why they stopped banning him in the first place.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression?
Progression was already nerfed because champions like Jax were basically guaranteed a lategame status and it was making early game champions not very important. If the hypercarries were kept in line, the old rate could be brought back.

Or maybe you meant the lack of progression of the players themselves? It's not easy to find guides for this game mode unless you're on these forums or the DD site. A stickied index of guides would help promote learning for the mode, on top of any possible Dominion spotlights or video guides.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
The lack of game phases? The lack of differentiation from game to game?
This occurs because the top champions are so much better than the lower champions.

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
You focus on Blackfire Torch, but among the sea of real problems that Dominion has, that really should be barely a consideration. It's imba. OK, we nerf it next patch. Hell, I already did.
That would be the topic of this thread. Thanks for telling us you've already done something about BFT -- this will quiet a lot of unrest. We focus on it because it is all we've had so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
These aren't buzzwords. This is the reality of Dominion. We're in do-or-die mode. If you really love Dominion, then subscribe yourself to the program and dig down deep. The rug's going to be pulled out from beneath your feet over and over again, and you'll have to get used to that.
Excuse me if I was being a bit rude with the use of the term buzzword, was a bit frustrated that you would admit low Elo is quitting the mode instead of adapting, but then not really explaining how the changes you made would help that. There's some inference that I disagreed with.

But, you're asking me if I really love and subscribe to Dominion? Me? Really? You're acting here like I can do something more, as a player. I write guides, I've played thousands of Dominion games, I spectate and give advice, I play in tournaments, I participate in interviews... basically the only thing I haven't done yet is run my own stream. The only worse person you could ask that question to is Feedski, who has put hundreds of personal money into DD to support the mode that Riot wouldn't for so long. The only reason I didn't reapply to Riot a few months back is because I had family in the hospital. I could reapply now, though -- I know I can help make Dominion be the competitive game mode Riot wanted.

As for the rug metaphor, you have to realize I am in complete support of this mode and meta being changed. We all are. But, the BFT and mana changes made the balance worse and it is easy to reason this happening from numerical and experience points of view. This is why we're frustrated -- we weren't asked for any feedback; we got no chance to say, "No, doing this will cause X and Y and neither is good, because A B and C reasons. Let's try something else?"

We're not GD. We can get frustrated, but that's mostly from being ignored so much. The Dominion community may be smaller, but it is largely comprised of older players that are willing to have constructive discussions with any Rioter that is willing to listen.


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Phourc

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is the reality of Dominion. We're in do-or-die mode. If you really love Dominion, then subscribe yourself to the program and dig down deep. The rug's going to be pulled out from beneath your feet over and over again, and you'll have to get used to that.
How... awkward.

So what can we, the players, do to help, besides play around with a ridiculously OP item?


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

The wanting ranked argument is not at all tied to the poor balance and lack of popularity of this game mode. The way to fix a broken game isn't to introduce a ranking system to it. This is just people pushing their own agenda because they think they'll be listened to when there's such crucial talks going on. The need to balance the game and improve its popularity (stem the people who are leaving) far outweighs the need to simply introduce a ranked matchmaking system. \

Think about the queue times for dominion draft mode. Then think about what those queue times will be like in ranked, which historically has far fewer players than in normal mode. Just take a chill pill, sit back, relax, and realize that ranked mode isn't gonna happen anytime soon.


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Killrazor

Senior Member

11-14-2012

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Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is a myth I want to address right now so we don't have to talk about this any more. I've said many times that there's a lack of causation here for many reasons.

1. Ranked makes up a negligible amount of our playerbase for SR and TT. The vast majority of our players do not play ranked, and have displayed no intention to.
2. Now, the argument can be made that the LACK of ranked has negative implications like discouraging organized play and competitive interest. But this is where we run into the causation issue.

I'm very well aware that the Dominion community wants ranked real bad--I do too. No really, I do! I stick up for you guys because I'm passionate about Dominion getting attention. I have my own reasons and intentions, but first and foremost I believe it's an important step to community stabilization. But don't use it as a scapegoat for why the mode is unpopular, because you're assuming causation when #1 (and I'm fully aware you guys don't have access to the statistics) speaks quite to the contrary.
I actually stopped playing dominion simply because there was no ranked available. A lack of ranked makes the map seem like it is not meant for any sort of serious play. Ranked brings a certain seriousness to a map and should be in all modes. Both SOLO and TEAM ranked should be in all maps as well. Or is Riot trying to say that only TT and SR are the only maps worth giving a **** about? Sure seems that way...Hopefully, Nome, you and other rioters can change that.

Dominion has been out over a year, and it needs to get out of beta. It needs Ranked. It needs it now.


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Sauron

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fomorian27 View Post
The wanting ranked argument is not at all tied to the poor balance and lack of popularity of this game mode. The way to fix a broken game isn't to introduce a ranking system to it. This is just people pushing their own agenda because they think they'll be listened to when there's such crucial talks going on. The need to balance the game and improve its popularity (stem the people who are leaving) far outweighs the need to simply introduce a ranked matchmaking system. \

Think about the queue times for dominion draft mode. Then think about what those queue times will be like in ranked, which historically has far fewer players than in normal mode. Just take a chill pill, sit back, relax, and realize that ranked mode isn't gonna happen anytime soon.
People not playing draft mode right now is a Catch-22 problem more than anything else. There used to be no dodge penalties, so the rate of dodgers in draft was incredibly high. When people decided to purposely do this to troll, it caused a good portion of its players to move to blind pick. When dodge penalties came back months later, nobody could play draft because nobody was playing draft.

Adding a ranked queue would cause an immediate influx of new Dominion players, many from other ranked modes. Would it be enough to not cause a split? Don't know. The average player can't say because he doesn't have the numbers, and the average Rioter can't say because he isn't allowed to share. All we can really do is argue opinion.

The only thing holding Dominion back from being taken as a serious mode (as seriously as TT, anyways) is the lack of a ranked queue. We have the tournaments and streams already. This is pre-season, so it is only logical to push this map as hard as we can and hopefully we can get ranked for it at the start of Season 3 (or shortly after), which would be the optimal time to have it happen.


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Ahlen

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Senior Member

11-14-2012

The people who stop playing, or don't play Dom due to lack of ranked are most likely a small minority. The bulk of the playerbase is casual, not competitive. Didn't Nome explain that very line here? That even if everyone who wanted ranked quit that'd only be a tiny fraction of Dom players?