Fix Blackfire please

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TechPrince

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
And what changes are those?

What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players? What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%?? What would you suggest we do to convince everyone that's quit on Dominion to come back? How do we message to players that Shaco isn't the best champ on Dominion? How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression? The lack of game phases? The lack of differentiation from game to game? You focus on Blackfire Torch, but among the sea of real problems that Dominion has, that really should be barely a consideration. It's imba. OK, we nerf it next patch. Hell, I already did.

These aren't buzzwords. This is the reality of Dominion. We're in do-or-die mode. If you really love Dominion, then subscribe yourself to the program and dig down deep. The rug's going to be pulled out from beneath your feet over and over again, and you'll have to get used to that.
I have played 800+ DOM games with shaco only and i was having pretty high win rate before these new items came in. I am not at all pro, but i do like to master a champ
Dominion could REALLY use some advertisement, your cinematic dom trailer was a good example for this. Players who likes fast paced PvP will like this map alot.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

11-15-2012

I might wander off-point, and forget some points. I've had thoughts over the last 5 pages, so not all may have stuck in my mind (also at work).

My main interest in game design is social mechanics, things like social contract, the psychology die in Burning Empires, etc. I come from the field of TT RPG (story game) design, this is background to my next statement:
Yegg is a game designer. Lyte is a game designer. That what they handle aren't always mechanics, at least on the in-game level, doesn't make them any less of a part of the system of the game.

As such, these things are design issues, even if they might get labeled as "promotion" or "marketing".

1. Knowledge in video games works in a trickle-down-economics. Most people don't play Ranked SR. Most people who play Ranked SR are not high Elo. Yet what happens in high Elo trickles down over time and affects a great many games played in mid-low normal Elo games.
Ranked in this instance is just a way to have an easier time to see who's high Elo, without having to dig and read about how Dominion has Elo and we can tell who's high Elo, etc.

2. Knowledge percolation is not really something you need to do much of. It's an emergent property of humans, to collect the knowledge. Look at the wiki, look at almost any game. The game companies aren't the creators of the repositories regarding knowledge of the game.
The wiki and solomid, and other such sites created and maintained by players are where these things happen. There are some issues linking to solomid by Riot I guess due to it being a commercial site, but this is not where you should focus your attention.

3. Where you should focus your attention is what I've talked about in #1, not the repository, but making it easier to spread information, to begin with, and to find valuable information. There are some things you can do, and their goal should be to kickstart things.

a. As mentioned, it's high time to get stickied threads on Dominion that'd help newcomers who come here. They're the minority of a minority, but why not help them? You said it'll happen, so good.
b. The shunting of threads from GD to Dominion has to stop. As I touched on before, this is a system, and this is the design of it. You (riot, not you Nome) are actively making it harder for people to see information regarding Dominion, hold discussions regarding Dominion, and even be reminded that Dominion exists.
c. I'm going to move it to #4, but you, personally, need to post more.

4. As said beforehand, most people don't play ranked. Most people don't browse the fora/reddit/solomid. But there are "emissaries". I am a perfect example of an emissary, since I play on EUW, yet I post here with things that happen on EUW and make sure that knowledge from this forum appears on the EUW chat, in case someone didn't notice it.
Likewise, in more or less all games and communities I've been part of, there are people who go to other communities/fonts of knowledge, and bring back the goods to the rest of the community, while sifting through the dross.

Red tracker is important. People notice it. I understand you had to buckle down on the TT rework, but there is a large effect to morale and people coming here by luck/thinking about the game mode as a result of consistent redtracker posts.

Roku and Feralpony, their recent S3 season changes mentioned "Making revive more appealing on all game modes" (slight paraphrasing). They should flat out mention the Dominion game mode in main GD redtracker posts. They should acknowledge it, reference the meta on it. These S3 posts are HUGE. So many readers, so much attention, a simple mention of revive being part of the Dominion meta could have quite some effect.

5. As Sauron mentioned, apart from for our own edification, it'd help majorly if you posted the thoughts behind game design decisions you make. You've explained why Thornmail had been removed on TT. People are really eager to see why designers make the changes they make.
These posts will again, get people into this forum, it'd make them see how the game mode is played because you (should) explain it in your posts, as these are the reasonings behind the changes.

Here's an example:
Shaco, Talon, Akali brutalize low-mid Elo. Their stealth is quite strong there since no one builds against it.
Lower Elo people tend to get flashy big power items over utility items, which is why they didn't get Sweeper.
Sweeper increasing in cost and losing the reveal passive will make it less useful as a counter to stealthers, but the stat increase might increase adoption rates in lower Elo games.
This is an example for what I think could be the reasoning behind the change. Sweeper unique passive was only really OP in high Elo anyway, posts such as these would definitely help.

6. The lack of ranked does affect people who play ranked, but play SR ranked. I have a lot of SR only friends from my early days in LoL, and the lack of ranked had consistently been noted in their reluctance to play Dominion. And of course, how bad the early games with all the AFKers are till you climb out, but then you often reach people who have a lot more experience than you do.

7. Tutorials. LoL was my first MOBA. I've read guides, I watched youtube guides to last hitting/zoning and such, and I've played the tutorial several times.
New players that are low level could be helped by these, as could players who've only played DotA style MOBAs.

8. The tips that load when the game starts, use them. I always laugh in /all when the tip tells me dragon respawns after 6 minutes, and Baron spawns for the first time at 15 minutes. These small things matter, and do lend some credence to the people that say anything but SR is overlooked - how hard is it to remove these tips from non-SR game-modes?

9. The point system, how are things going there? That system makes it harder for newer players to adapt to the map, that system can make people quit when they get raged at for playing in ways the system encourages them to, or when they understand it's a mistake but suddenly everyone around them is seen to be "playing wrong".

10. I have another imba change to suggest, that might get people to come to Dominion for a while, to give it a whirl - energy change.
Even with the mana regen nerf, mana late game is mostly a non-issue, but energy becomes more and more of a liability in comparison. Energy is balanced around laning where mana often runs out, but energy users can keep doing things.
Either add a consumable that would increase energy regen for cheap, ala the Ichor of Brilliance, or much more drastic, perhaps even necessary, and sure to perhaps shake things up:
Add +1 energy regen/sec per champion level. At level 10 this will already double the energy regen. I think these numbers are too high for sure, but it's a drastic change that could shake things up and get more people to try the mode.

11. You need to be seen to be playing Dominion, you need to come visit EUW and EUNE more. Emissaries like myself help, but perception has a lot to do with it, as you yourself noted. Red posts on EUW/EUNE are quite rare, so any post you make on these forum will have an effect even more noticeable than those on the NA fora, in terms of footprint. Sure, it'd mostly affect the high Elo players, but they matter too, and for the forum it'd help everyone. Dunno. It places a lot of weight on you, but I don't see any other way, unless as mentioned above Roku, Feralpony, etc. make the mentions for other game modes and perhaps even post in their respective fora on how the changes will affect them.

More work for you guys, as people, but I think it might be unavaoidable. Phreak has to mention and show Dominion again - even if the advice is looked at as horrible by Dominion players from high Elo - they're not the intended audience, but increasing adoption rates of low Elo/SR players is. Likewise, Phreak said he gets advice from high Elo players on champions who get art/skill rework, so he can do the same with his Dominion segments.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
Add +1 energy regen/sec per champion level. At level 10 this will already double the energy regen. I think these numbers are too high for sure, but it's a drastic change that could shake things up and get more people to try the mode.
While I agree energy users are gimped this needs to be approached carefully, certain energy users are balanced around having low cooldowns and using their skills correctly to regain energy. A better solution would be to add a "Increase energy restoration effects by X%". That way energy users get rewarded for using their actual energy restoration technique, instead of sitting back and spamming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
We're kind of in crunch mode for S3, so I don't want to focus too much on this thread anymore, as BFT is getting nerfed already (-5% CDR, -5 pen, -7 max charges, and possibly changes to burn application).
Well even though you seemed to of overlooked my question asking for this info, thanks for sharing it. However if you are going to change the burn damage, tie it to something that ONLY mages use. You want this to be an AP caster item yet as it stands tanks get to use it, it is attractive for tanks that don't get any ap at all. They can go full tank + this item and do comparable dps to full on mages, and AD casters get to exploit it as a source of addition damage on their skills since they do not get AP at all.

Making it do the damage it does now require around 200-250ish ap while lowering the max charges should stop the unintended champions from being able to exploit it, while allowing it to be a viable damage option for mages.

Alternatively instead of the damage being based on a targets max hp, you could make it worked like "Augment Death". This would stop it being so strong on dot skills but make it stronger on single target skills. Example

Quote:
Your spells burn for an additional 30% magic damage over 3 seconds
This way things like dot's such as Teemo's E do not gain a giganormous damage boost from it, since a tick would only get a 10% boost per tick. (so a 10 dps dot becomes a 12 dps dot, instead of the current 40ish dps dot) but a 600ish damage nuke gets a nice damage boost of 180. 30% additional damage might be too low but imo the concept is sound.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Chronicle, I said myself, it's an imba change, it's a huge change, it'll get people who normally don't play Dominion to perhaps come and give it a try, to test it out.

There are more practical solutions I can think of, but I opened with that disclaimer for a reason


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Volandum

Senior Member

11-15-2012

On the topic of the start-of-game tips, they might be a good way to deliver concrete tactical advice for dominion, and help clear impressions that dominion lacks strategy, in the way that they give a vague impression that timers are important in SR. For example, suggesting travelling to windmill via the speed shrines and fog of war, or just generally emphasising the importance of being in the fog of war as much as possible in dominion. Or suggesting the use of hextech sweeper or oracle's to counter stealth. They might help to fix very obvious errors that might occur at low elo.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
Chronicle, I said myself, it's an imba change, it's a huge change, it'll get people who normally don't play Dominion to perhaps come and give it a try, to test it out.

There are more practical solutions I can think of, but I opened with that disclaimer for a reason
The problem with throwing in imba **** to get people to play it because they want to be imba is that they leave the second the imba thing gets balanced out, and the imba thing causes people who were already playing to want to leave.


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Arance

Senior Member

11-15-2012

One of the easiest, and likely most impactful, changes to raise Dominion visibility would be Red posts advertising the DD tournies. Hell, a front page announcement would likely cause a proportionally huge spike.


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Volandum

Senior Member

11-15-2012

We tried that once, the tournament stream viewership went from about 200 peak to 5000+. Seems effective.


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cocacolalips

Senior Member

11-15-2012

My Soraka was for once able to defend her lane quite actively, where I'm usually sitting at my tower, stalling as much as I can, stacking defense items, in hopes of the Jax, Darius (insert stupid obscene champion here) will be foolish enough to dive me when my summoner spells are on.

I won't complain.


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TechPrince

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Just disable this item from dominion...