Ignite most certainly cannot replace Surge's unique role!!!

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Zergleb

Member

11-12-2012

I aim to make these arguments based on in game Fun and Strategy as my primary directives.

Surge's main strength was as a team fight spell for being able to keep up damage for the length of a team fight(12 seconds) and ignite does 5 seconds of damage ONLY to a single target.

Ignites main strength is in burst attacks, which are usually best when you surprise them. This is a nerf on non-burst championions because you are unlikely to surprise a champion with a sustained damage champion. Yet you still take away all the advantages and strategies of surge.

When they say that Ignite and Surge are competing what could they possibly mean? Do they not realize the strategic uses of Surge over Ignite?

Surge has more options of use than Ignite creating more interesting gameplay for those who choose to use it and in closing,

Things surge does well that ignite doesn't

1. Sustained team fights
2. Push towers harder with increased attack speed
3. Plausible replacement to smite that helps you gank harder once you are strong enough to take red and blue without smite(Options make for good strategy and fun gameplay)(A spell that really helps the team at level 18)(Team fights win baron more often than a sneaky smite steal does)
4. Move and attack fighting styles(Ranged Heroes)(The attack speed from surge REALLY helps someone when they want to move and attack)(Helps ranged tops to actually compete against brawlers, this patch buffs top brawlers)
5. Good against those who have cleanse

All of these fun gameplay elements will be removed with this patch!

Elements of a game are solid when they

A - Have their own distinct role
B - Are balanced and balancable
C - Add to the fun of the overall gameplay(through strategic options)

And should not provoke removal!!

Please give me more reason to remove this from the game than "It's a niche we'd like ignite to fill", I find that logic incomplete please expand on your thoughts. I don't know why you would remove something without something provoking the removal.

Please do not remove this from the game.


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IS1dd0cba794c57948b76b3

Member

11-13-2012

I think the reason they are removing Surge was that it was one of the least used summoner spells. I know from personal experience that I never saw Surge in any ranked games or even normal ones. I only saw them in Coop v ai and customs.


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Zergleb

Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATerribleSTD View Post
I think the reason they are removing Surge was that it was one of the least used summoner spells. I know from personal experience that I never saw Surge in any ranked games or even normal ones. I only saw them in Coop v ai and customs.
That in itself is not a reason to remove it from the game, I gave a large number of reasons why it fulfills a role in the game that ignite does not. A better question would be why are they not using it? perhaps because general consensus seems to be they feel it's imbalanced to be too weak is what I have heard. Not even one experiment has been conducted to see if increasing the strength of this ability would lead to players using it and having fun with it. Even if you debuff later many players will have found a stride with it after this experiment.(Many players will not try something new until they see it has been buffed in the changelist)


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Pinker 10

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Item discussion includes spells? The competition no doubt stems from Ignite mastery, but nonetheless, Surge fills a rather different niche, and is not the same as ignite. Surge is not a coop v ai and custom spell, and is in fact amazing on Hybrid kayle. I personally have never used it, but it is useful, and in an altogether different way than ignite, if they're expecting ignite to replace it, i expect to see an ignite Rewrite.


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IS1dd0cba794c57948b76b3

Member

11-13-2012

I tried it out and I felt as though the benefit of having it wasn't as good as having ignite. Ignite reduces heals and deals true damage.

It's true that surge does last through a team fight, but remember, attack speed bonuses are scaled off your base attack speed, not your total. So the true bonus that people really get is maybe 0.4-0.5 attacks per second and the AP that is gained usually only adds about 100-200 damage in a fight that gets mitigated, while True Damage never gets mitigated.

Surge is no substitute for smite. Hands down, this just doesn't compare to smite in any way shape or form. The frequency at which smite comes up and the sheer amount of damage that it has VASTLY outweighs the attack speed. By the time Surge is viable for jungling, you don't need Surge due to the itemization you already have.

Surge being effective on attack and go champs... I don't really see it. If you're kiting someone like Ashe, your slow is already doing the job of preventing them from getting to you. Frozen Mallet is also preventing them from getting to you and making you bulkier and do more damage. These are readily available all during the game while Surge has a relatively long cooldown (3 min).

The only plausible argument I could see is that it is good against cleanse since you can't cleanse off Surge from an enemy. However, Stun is equally good against Surge. So is reduced attack speed (like Frozen Heart and Nunu's Snowball since they reduce based on TOTAL attack speed and not BASE attack speed) Which makes me feel as though it is a weak argument.


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Zergleb

Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinker 10 View Post
Item discussion includes spells? The competition no doubt stems from Ignite mastery, but nonetheless, Surge fills a rather different niche, and is not the same as ignite. Surge is not a coop v ai and custom spell, and is in fact amazing on Hybrid kayle. I personally have never used it, but it is useful, and in an altogether different way than ignite, if they're expecting ignite to replace it, i expect to see an ignite Rewrite.
This is definitely a feedback issue, if you can think of which of the 6 feedback forums is more appropriate please let me know. As it turns out summoners don't have their own forum so I decided champions are specific while items are champion customization so I chose this forum.

Also I don't foresee an Ignite rewrite that could come close to replacing Surge.

Thanks for the comments, I'm glad to see you also see things my way.


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Zergleb

Member

11-13-2012

"Surge doesn't compete with smite"
It's not a strategy that works on every jungler, but attack and move with Kayle gets blue easy without smite and leaves you open to gank with surge or use it on red if you really need to. The main point is if you are strong enough to get through jungle, your ganks will greatly benefit from surge rather than smite.

Strength against Ignite

I would like to start with strategies are my main concern rather than balance because balance is easy to change so how does that justify removing it? but surge only needs 2 extra attacks that would not have otherwise happened in order to be as strong as ignite first level(Imagine early game, where surge is weakest, you get 2 hits in with 70 or 80 damage that's 140-160 damage reduced by probably a small amount of armor, so surge is already ahead) that scenario is not that far fetched, but I don't even feel like discussing I'm making gamplay arguments not balance arguments. You could make the opposite argument and say ignite is too strong and remove it for that reason. But that doesn't make any more sense.

Attack and Go Champs

You don't use attack and go on Ashe shes a ranged champ, this is very much a ranged vs melee champ strategy. You have a brawler come in who will assuredly kill you if you slow down to attack him while you run. But if you use surge then your attack animation is lowered allowing you to attack him while you are running because it doesn't slow you down as much.(I think micro is a fun way to play games, especially if you only have one unit)

Cleanse

You make the argument that Ignite is better against some other situations, but isn't that what tactics are all about, are not these situations what DRIVE the game you are playing?
unique situations and responding to them correctly in team and 1 on 1 settings? I think your arguments here prove a distinction in game play between the 2 spells even further! If surge had ZERO counter strategies then THAT would be a reason to remove it, but as you said, it does have counter strategies.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Surge suffers from a lot of ills...

First off, AS + AP isn't very useful on most champions...

Second, it made your character a big bullseye when you used it.

Third, you had to commit to a fight once you used it unlike ignite which you toss on after you commit.


Fourth it wasn't fool proof. You could be cc'd, kited, they could flash away, ect.

So there were just to many reasons not to use the skill...and hence it wasn't used...

Especially since masteries allowed ignite to give you a passive dps improvement from being on cd...

I don't think most will miss it...and replacing it with a spell that will see more use from a larger variety of champions is a good thing.


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crzymdscntst

Senior Member

11-13-2012

I miss the original Surge.

Y'know, what they intended it to be, a mobile Rally. AoE stats for your team for a duration was too strong, the self applied buff is too UP?

I do recall a large part of where the problems lie with each is really something to keep an eye on.

Rally - Targetable unit. Teamfights are mobile, not stationary.

Surge 1.0 - AoE Buff OP. Team that had this won the battle.

Surge 2.0 - What's the point of these stats in this combination? There are a few who use them, but overall you don't use them both. Wouldn't it be better to just have stat-stick Summoner Spells?


(stat-stick. Use a SS slot instead of for Ignite... you'd get an ability that gave you flat AP, potentially leveling at key points as per other SS.)


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H0p0nP0p

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATerribleSTD View Post
I think the reason they are removing Surge was that it was one of the least used summoner spells. I know from personal experience that I never saw Surge in any ranked games or even normal ones. I only saw them in Coop v ai and customs.
i rarely see...

urgot, karma, sejuani, heimer, viktor, xerath, poppy, trundle.... rarely seen these champs. riot should just remove them also =P lets have irelia "fill this void" =D

and agreeing to OP, surge is a very fun ability to have in such like the youmo ghostblade. nobody really uses it for penetration or the active n e more. but it's still there. but wen those who specialize and those who try it out. it is very effective summoner spell. like said, i have used it as jungler b4, jax/sion/ADC AA, yi for another "ult", cho to b bigger so enemy can't CLICK on my allies... there's tons of ways to use it.

riot just don't know how to use their own babies... just like how them asian team strat's r > riot meta.