@RIOT The future of supports could be here in this thread

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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

11-12-2012

All right guys so we all know that support have become kind of stale over season 2 and that the role isn't exactly concrete. (TL;DR at the bottom) We have ap caries and other champions jumping into the role as well like support zyra, support morgana, etc, etc and while they fill the role quite well at what point do they eventually overtake traditional supports and how to you solve a problem with general non support playing as a great support option, being a damage threat, and hording massive utility without destroying their carry style gameplay as well and how do you make the traditional support much more flexible and capable of sitting in a 0 CS role.

Well first I want to introduce you to some key terms and then talk about my solution so read if you like and let me know what you think. This is something that is a work in progress but input from others helps and this aimed at helping us all.

Warning many walls of text!!!

Quote:
Key Terms:
Utility Power: A stat that increases the power of utility spells but not direct damage.
Utility: Utility is divided into two categories Team Utility and Self Utility.
Team Utility: Team Utility is utility that everyone on your team can take advantage of and falls into the category of CC, Aura’s, Buffs, and debuffs that don’t effect only one champion. Examples: Taric, Shatter and Dazzle or Nunu’s blood boil and ice Blast.
Self Utility: Self Utility is Utility that only the holding champion can use but helps them achieve their goal without doing damage directly in most cases. Examples: Nidalee's Prowl, ezreals Arcane shift, Tarics gem craft, and general self buffs and other blinks/movement speed buffs in general are all self utility. AD Carries and bruisers rely on a lot of self Utility
Quote:
Introduction of a new stat:
Utility Power a stat made to split the support power of champions away from their damage potential and allow for support to still be strong at supporting without hindering their ability to also be a damage threat should they go a damage dealer route. The utility that supports bring is what defines them as a support. Supports bring more utility to the team than your average champion thus they are relegated to being less of a damage threat for balance sake. The idea of Utility Power is to allow supports to choose. “Should I build support items to support better or damage items to help deal more damage? What do we need more of? The intrinsic value of this stat and items containing it are geared towards being highest with supports but extremely low on non-supports. This will allow us to apply easier methods of balancing champion utility and damage. Supports often receive balance changes when their utility to damage capabilities are out of balance but with a way to truly scale utility back but allow growth from items makes supports a truly strong choice to have on the team.

So let us begin shall we. Utility power is a universal stat for increasing the effectiveness of champion utility. This would require a global change to utility which could have the potential to change the game drastically. It isn’t something that should be implemented immediately on all champions but it is something that can be used on all in the future. For most stats Utility power will act as a percent modifier 10 Utility power will increase effectiveness by 10% and 50 Utility power will increase its effectiveness by 50%. It will be mostly in item form but will not be a stat you can get too much more than 100 of due to itemization and runes/masteries amounts. For this to work without making some champions utterly overpowered the itemless effectiveness of their utility would have to be reduced which will cement building utility as being a support choice and building AP or AD as the carry/damage dealer choice. As the Utility is nerfed for Utility Power scaling so must the damage ratios be buffed to support being able to do the damage role as well. Now let’s talk about how Utility Power affects Buffs, Debuffs, and CC’s.

Flat Buffs will be reduced a small amount and be effected the same way as % buffs where 10 UP equals 10% more effective and 100 equals 100% more effective. Taric armor aura reduced to scale 5/10/15/20/25 from 10/15/20/25/30 would be just as effective at about 35 UP.
Percent Buffs would receive a percent increase but also have the amount they give reduced to compensate for the additional scaling for instance Nunu’s attackspeed/movespeed buff. Blood Boil increases attack speed by 25/35/45/55/65%. The total would be reduced to 20/25/30/35/40% but for every 10 Utility Power you have it would be increased by 10% so at 10 Utility Power it would be 22/27.5/33/38.5/44% and 100 Utility Power it would be 40/50/60/70/80%. The duration of Hastes will be unaffected by Utility Power.
Flat/Percent Debuffs would be effected in the same way, just like Hastes, Slows duration will be unaffected by Utility Power.

CC’s or crowd control will benefit from Utility Power as well but with limitations. Hard CC (Snares, Stuns, Fears, Taunts, and Charms) can only be increased to a cap of 50%. It will be made unattractive as much as possible to hard CC carrying damage dealers but probably be in small amounts on some damage items. Persistent slows (Frost shot) will receive reduced effects as well but regular slows (Ice Blast) will receive the same scaling as hastes. Slows can only be increased by up to cap of 25%. Hard CC ratio would be 100 Utility Power for 50% duration increase. Persistent slows would be 100 Utility Power for 25% increase in the slows.

My reasoning behind this is I find slows to be the most prevalent and one of the strongest CC’s in the game. Movement and attackspeed slows are some of the most debilitating slows in the game. Melees and ranged Carries suffer the effects of slows the most but slows makes it easy for melee to cut down range opponents easier as well. Hard CC is great for catching a single target with multiple allies but ineffective if it is a mobile champion that can quickly flee after the duration wears off. Slows on the other hand hold everyone in place and make short work of an agile champions mobility.
Mastery Utility Tree Rework and slight modifications to other trees:
Introduction of Synergy and Utility Power Means supports can have a much more concrete role but also not be pigeon holed into only being viable as a support. This will require a rework of the utility tree which wasn’t really strong to begin with and various tweaks and additions to items, runes, and masteries.


I got some great ideas from Cupcake Trap in his thread where he talks about the 0 CS support meta and how supports in general are a gold starved role. Another issue i noticed my self is that support rely on assists early on for gold and gp 5 items. generally in bot lane the side that gets fb and or gets ahead of the other side punishes the support much more than the AD carry. An AD carry may mis out on some last hits in a lsing lane but a support in a lsing lane falls behind trying to keep up with ward management, getting gp5 items and not taking CS. The basic way i seen this and these numbers are completely made up for my example. Lets say our winning AD carry is sitting on a total of 6000 earned gold and his support is sitting on a total of 4000 gold. Now the losing AD carry is sitting on 5000 gold but the losing support is sitting on 2500 gold. This could probably be explained better but basically support get the worst part of a bad day when your losing lane.

These are a some ideas I had but don't take any of them seriously. Some may be good some may be bad and they are hear just for fresh ideas hopefully.

Several things to note:

Support synergy is an idea from cupcake trap that allows nearby allies to gain a small portion of gold equal to a percent of allied income from CS. It is balanceed no matter how many allies are nearby due to minions waves always consisting of 6 to 9 minions. Even in 4 allies are killing minions you still only get the same amount of gold you would get if one ally killed all the minions. Lastly you do not get the bonus if you are killing the minions so it can't be stacked to increase the effectiveness of your own income from CS unless you are sharing CS which ultimately still divides the gold pretty evenly.

There are also masteries meant to support initiating and aggressive supports. You get gold for attacking enemies but you get even more if an aly follows up as an AD carry would do if some one like Taric stunned an enemy champion.

This isn't perfect but I'm sure something great can come of these ideas.
Quote:
Offense Tree Tier 4 Vampirism is combined with Transmute making it an offense tree only bonus giving 3% lifesteal and spell vamp or the reverse making it a utility tree only option


Utility Tree Remake:

Old Masteries:
Tier 1:
Summoners Insight (summoner Spells)
Good Hands: Reduces Time Dead by 4/7/10%
Expanded Mind: 4/8/12 Mana per level or 4/7/10 Energy
Improved Recall: reduces recall time by 1 second
Tier 2:
Swiftness: 0.5/1/1.5/2% movespeed
Expanded Mind>Meditation: +1/2/3 mana regen
Scout: Increase Vision range of wards by 5%
Tier 3:
Greed: Gain 0.5/1/1.5/2 gold per 10
Transmutation: +1/2/3% spellvamp
Runic Affinity: Increased buff duration
Tier 4:
Wealth: +20/40 starting gold
Awareness: +1.25/2.5/3.75/5% additional XP gained
Sage: Gain 40 bonus gold on kills/Assists
Tier 5:
Strength of Spirit: Increases hp regen per 5 by 0.4.0.8/1.2% of max mana
Intelligence: +2/4/6% CDR
Tier 6:
Mastermind: Summoner spell Cooldowns reduced by 15%


New Masteries:
Tier 1:
Summoners Insight (summoner Spells): Ignite heal debuff duration increased, Exhaust duration increased and you gain +5 utility power for every summoner spell on cooldown.
Good Hands: Reduces Time Dead by 4/7/10%
Expanded Mind: 4/8/12 Mana per level or 4/7/10 Energy
Improved Recall: reduces recall time by 1 second
Tier 2:
Swiftness: 0.5/1/1.5/2% movespeed
Expanded Mind>Meditation: +1/2/3 mana regen
Sentry: Increases ward duration by 10/20/30 seconds
Runic Affinity: Increased buff duration by 15%
Tier 3:
Greed: Gain 1/1.5/2 gold per 10
Utilitarian: Your champion gains 1/1.5/2 additional HP per point of Utility Power.
Sentry>Scout: Increase Vision range of wards by 10%
Tier 4:
Greed>Wealth: +20/40 starting gold
Awareness: +1.25/2.5/3.75/5% additional XP gained
Sage: Gain 25% bonus gold on kills/Assists
Tier 5:
Wealth>Support Synergy: Your champion gains 20/40/60% of the gold value of minions and monsters slain by nearby allied champions within 650 range. (Does not work on minions you kill)
Wealth>Mug: Attacking an enemy champion grants 4 gold(2 for ranged) and marks them for 5 seconds. If an allied champion hits the same enemy champion the mark is consumed giving you an additional 6 gold(3 for ranged).
Strength of Spirit: Increases hp regen per 5 by 0.4.0.8/1.2% of max mana
Intelligence: +2/4/6% CDR

Tier 6:
Mastermind: Summoner spell Cooldowns reduced by 15%

Misc. Mastery changes:
Offense summoner spell Mastery now adds +5 Utility Points when ignite is on cooldown
Old Transmutation combined with Vampirism for a total of 1/2/3% spellvamp and lifesteal
Quote:
Support itemization remakes and additions:

Philosophers Stone: add +5 Utility Power as a Unique Passive

Heart of Gold: add +5 Utility Power as a Unique Passive

Kage’s Lucky Pick: add +5 Utility Power as a Unique Passive

Kindle Gem: add +5 Utility Power as a unique passive

Abyssal Scepter: Now builds from Kage’s Lucky Pick + Ability Tome and Gives +10 Utility Power.
Unique Passive reduced to 15 from 20 but now scales off of 0.25 Utility Power

Randuins Omen: Now Gives +15 Utility Power and Unique Passive reduced from 35% slow to 30% but gains Utility Power Scaling.

Shurelia’s Reverie: Now Gives +15 Utility Power and Speed Boots reduced a small amount but gains Utility Power Scaling.

Emblem of Valor: Now gives +10 Utility Power

Starks Fervor: Now Gives +20 Utility Power. Aura Stats Slightly reduced but Scales with Utility Power

Zeke’s Herald: Now Gives +20 Utility Power. Aura Stats Slightly reduced but Scales with Utility Power

Frozen Heart: Now Gives +20 Utility Power. Aura Stats Slightly reduced but Scales with Utility Power.

Death Fire Grasp: Now gives 10 Utility Power but has Additional Scaling with Utility Power.

Aegis Of the Legion: Now Gives +20 Utility Power. Aura Stats Slightly reduced but Scales with Utility Power.
Elisia’s Miracle: +15 Utility Power

New Items:
Farseer’s Staff: Builds From philosophers stone + Kindle Gem + Cloth Armor + Null magic Mantle
+15 Utility Power+300 hp +10% CDR +30 Armor +30 Magic Resist +15 hp regen per 5 + 5 mana regen per 5
Unique Active: Clairvoyance

Scouts Honor Box: Builds From Heart of Gold + Kindle Gem + Cloth Armor + Null magic Mantle
+15 Utility Power + 500 hp +10% CDR +30 Armor +30 Magic Resist
Unique Active: generates a ward every 180 seconds and holds up to an additional 5 purchased wards. (Holds a maximum of 1 generated ward and 5 purchased wards.)

All items offering Utility Power will offer it in a Unique Passive. With Items alone one should not be able to break 100. Runes and Masteries Could Supplement this further but not by too much more. Additionally Aura Items no longer stack at all and if 1 or more champion has the same items the stronger one takes effect. A Nasus and Taric with Aegis will only receive the effect from a Taric toting greater Utility Power.


I hope this reaches the right eyes and that it can help. If not I just wasted allot of time

TL;DR: Add a new stat for utility that boosts champions utility and can be used to make supports stronger in their supportive roles without hurting their damage roles if they want to get damage.


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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

11-12-2012

bump for thoughs

Wall of text must be too scary


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Zhonyas

Senior Member

11-12-2012

Supports got nerfed hard like **** this season. Thats why other unconventional supports outshine them.


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Hexerin

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11-14-2012

that's a lot to read, so i'm gonna leave this post here so i can come back and read it when i'm not half asleep. definitely interested in what you have to say since it relates to supports, which is my role of choice

in the meantime, enjoy this bump and +1

keyword: antidisestablishmentarianism


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Sagee Prime

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11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexerin View Post
that's a lot to read, so i'm gonna leave this post here so i can come back and read it when i'm not half asleep. definitely interested in what you have to say since it relates to supports, which is my role of choice

in the meantime, enjoy this bump and +1

keyword: antidisestablishmentarianism
I could have maybe condensed it a bit more but most importantly its needs a good opening. I just don't have time to keep up with all of it right now otherwise i would have posted something months ago. Mid terms soon :/


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gozolve

Member

11-15-2012

Riot has a long messy history of H A T E! when it comes to support so unless your changes make supports less support like i think your wasting your breath.


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Sagee Prime

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11-16-2012

This is why allot of great ideas never see the light of day


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Kibitt

Member

11-17-2012

Now, I'd say the interesting thing about Utility Power is that it's a small stat meant to be shoved in with other stats. In that respect, it's like Crit for Utility. The only real question is - what if your support is Sona, who has only 1 spell that benefits from it - her ultimate? Taric as well.

Also, Morgana is labelled as a support, but it'd be hilarious to see those 6 second snares from Dark Binding.

The biggest problem with Supports is that the role is intended to do almost nothing. They aren't supposed to shove the enemy AD Carry out of lane (the recent nerfs are proof of this), deal damage, or keep someone disabled forever. I would say that although Utility Power is a neat idea, it doesn't really help because it isn't really "utility power" but "CC power". The two are immensely different. An example would be an aura or a heal. Even if you go around and change every champion to work off of this, you've just made bruisers weaker, and tanks will have worse early games and be more money dependent as they need to get that Utility Power to stop being kited. Additionally, it shackles anyone who wants a good stun to a certain build path.

Finally, even if you got through all of that mess, you'd still be faced with a hard truth: You have to spend money on it. This is why Supports have problems to being with, because they can't spend that money. In games like Dota 2 or HoN, supports get a significant amount of power from strange scalings such as the number of people around you (essentially, there are spells like concentrated aura effects, such as Jarvan's shield) which aren't very money reliant. Does this mean we use Dota 2's methods? Nope. We can find our own way, and it's clear that we are trying.

So after all of that, how could we possibly make it so that supports are noticed? Well, with Season 3, Sightstone will be interesting. Yes, it costs 650g so it's not exactly a cheap walk-into-lane-at-lv-1 kind of item, but after two or three trips back while using it, it's paid for itself. How does this really help? Well, it not only makes wards easier to obtain during mid game, but the fun part is when you realize that your support now has money to spend on other items! Since no other role wants to put money into such neat little items 'cause they'd lose their lane or lose power, this is a great Support fix. I highly doubt it will make everything nice and dandy, but it's an exemplary solution.

If we were to take this as an example, then we'd try and look for other items that relieve the support role of pressure - items that have no real stat value worth mentioning, but are money efficient. Those are the items a support cares about. I mean, this is all about scaling and power, right? Well, I haven't seen scaling nerfs on supports very recently, but that's probably because they never get those items to begin with. I think Season 3 will be promising for the Support, as it is trying to address those needs.


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Sagee Prime

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11-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitt View Post
Now, I'd say the interesting thing about Utility Power is that it's a small stat meant to be shoved in with other stats. In that respect, it's like Crit for Utility. The only real question is - what if your support is Sona, who has only 1 spell that benefits from it - her ultimate? Taric as well.

Also, Morgana is labelled as a support, but it'd be hilarious to see those 6 second snares from Dark Binding.

The biggest problem with Supports is that the role is intended to do almost nothing. They aren't supposed to shove the enemy AD Carry out of lane (the recent nerfs are proof of this), deal damage, or keep someone disabled forever. I would say that although Utility Power is a neat idea, it doesn't really help because it isn't really "utility power" but "CC power". The two are immensely different. An example would be an aura or a heal. Even if you go around and change every champion to work off of this, you've just made bruisers weaker, and tanks will have worse early games and be more money dependent as they need to get that Utility Power to stop being kited. Additionally, it shackles anyone who wants a good stun to a certain build path.

Finally, even if you got through all of that mess, you'd still be faced with a hard truth: You have to spend money on it. This is why Supports have problems to being with, because they can't spend that money. In games like Dota 2 or HoN, supports get a significant amount of power from strange scalings such as the number of people around you (essentially, there are spells like concentrated aura effects, such as Jarvan's shield) which aren't very money reliant. Does this mean we use Dota 2's methods? Nope. We can find our own way, and it's clear that we are trying.

So after all of that, how could we possibly make it so that supports are noticed? Well, with Season 3, Sightstone will be interesting. Yes, it costs 650g so it's not exactly a cheap walk-into-lane-at-lv-1 kind of item, but after two or three trips back while using it, it's paid for itself. How does this really help? Well, it not only makes wards easier to obtain during mid game, but the fun part is when you realize that your support now has money to spend on other items! Since no other role wants to put money into such neat little items 'cause they'd lose their lane or lose power, this is a great Support fix. I highly doubt it will make everything nice and dandy, but it's an exemplary solution.

If we were to take this as an example, then we'd try and look for other items that relieve the support role of pressure - items that have no real stat value worth mentioning, but are money efficient. Those are the items a support cares about. I mean, this is all about scaling and power, right? Well, I haven't seen scaling nerfs on supports very recently, but that's probably because they never get those items to begin with. I think Season 3 will be promising for the Support, as it is trying to address those needs.
I don't think you read through it all. Every one of sona and tarics abilities would scale with utility power because they all offer utility.

The stat has a gold cost but I presented a means for them to acquire more gold from more sources and with the addition of the new stat they will need it.

Lastly the effects of utility power has limitations based on what it is empowering. A 6 second snare would never happen.


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Brokroma

Senior Member

11-17-2012

Downvoted for being pretentious.