Thought process behind removing thornmail?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yefo

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LixaLollipop View Post
People actually bought thornmail?
I started buying it when I found out it was so OP it was being removed from the map lol


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

VIOLENTxSHINOBI

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
It's a trap in most cases, but in the niche case that it's useful, it's too strong. I also have a few design issues with it; for instance, it scales with your opponent's power (yes, I know there are abilities that do this), and it's targeted against a group of characters that is already weak on the map.
Without HP to go with it, a TM wont keep you alive long enough to really put put damage that matters, right?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SaveTheMaids

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by LixaLollipop View Post
People actually bought thornmail?
I once saw a Jarvan build Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Mallet, Hexdrinker, and Wicked Hatchet

Not even Tryndamere and Jax could 1v1 him 40 minutes into the game. They would literally kill themselves trying to fight him.

Seems... or seemed really strong when paired with Wicked Hatchet.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

teh d wreck

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
It's a trap in most cases, but in the niche case that it's useful, it's too strong. I also have a few design issues with it; for instance, it scales with your opponent's power (yes, I know there are abilities that do this), and it's targeted against a group of characters that is already weak on the map.
Out of curiosity what are these champions that it's targeted against, or if you don't want to or can't say which champions, what type of champions does this happen to?

The only times I buy thornmail is against at least two champions that are ad, mostly if they are ad carry type sort (also I only buy it if I'm a tank and one of these types are fed)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mine Jump

Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
It's a trap in most cases, but in the niche case that it's useful, it's too strong. I also have a few design issues with it; for instance, it scales with your opponent's power (yes, I know there are abilities that do this), and it's targeted against a group of characters that is already weak on the map.
Targeted against AD bruisers
AD bruisers are weak on Twisted Treeline


... This logic makes me think that Rioters have never played any games on Twisted Treeline. And this is coming from someone who on one account or another, has played multiple games with Rioters.

Thornmail was essentially the only counter to heavy AD + armor pen. And it wasn't too strong in my experience - with good focus on one character at a time and retreating after getting a kill, an all AD team could still succeed against thornmail-equipped characters. It wasn't game-breaking by any standard, and it offered greater variety in team composition, which is something I've always felt Riot was trying to encourage.

The only time I've seen it become really broken is worn on an AD bruiser who already has boatloads of health and gold to spare. But that wasn't really Thornmail to blame, that was just how hard games snowball on the new map. Chopping off thornmail is like chopping off someone's toe to fix their hangnail. At its most broken it was an annoyance that could be lived with, and the rest of the time it was a completely fine and necessary part of the meta.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

VIOLENTxSHINOBI

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raherin View Post
Out of curiosity what are these champions that it's targeted against, or if you don't want to or can't say which champions, what type of champions does this happen to?

The only times I buy thornmail is against at least two champions that are ad, mostly if they are ad carry type sort (also I only buy it if I'm a tank and one of these types are fed)
Ranged ADC's.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

VIOLENTxSHINOBI

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mine Jump View Post
Targeted against AD bruisers
AD bruisers are weak on Twisted Treeline


... This logic makes me think that Rioters have never played any games on Twisted Treeline. And this is coming from someone who on one account or another, has played multiple games with Rioters.

Thornmail was essentially the only counter to heavy AD + armor pen. And it wasn't too strong in my experience - with good focus on one character at a time and retreating after getting a kill, an all AD team could still succeed against thornmail-equipped characters. It wasn't game-breaking by any standard, and it offered greater variety in team composition, which is something I've always felt Riot was trying to encourage.

The only time I've seen it become really broken is worn on an AD bruiser who already has boatloads of health and gold to spare. But that wasn't really Thornmail to blame, that was just how hard games snowball on the new map. Chopping off thornmail is like chopping off someone's toe to fix their hangnail. At its most broken it was an annoyance that could be lived with, and the rest of the time it was a completely fine and necessary part of the meta.
RiotNome was speaking about ranged ADC's, not AD bruisers. You don't typically build TM for AD bruisers, you build it for Fiora, Tryn, YI and ranged ADC's.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

I Nullity I

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
This is where I defer to the last point, where it's targeted towards a group of characters that are already disadvantaged on the map.
I would not consider the AD bruiser meta disadvantaged, which is who people target against with thornmail on TT.
The only disadvantaged groups are the squishy AD carries, and they aren't disadvantaged because they're AD, they're disadvantaged because they have no health and stacking health=victory. Especially since instagibbing on TT seems a lot easier.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

VIOLENTxSHINOBI

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Do people even read anymore?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

VIOLENTxSHINOBI

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Nullity I View Post
I would not consider the AD bruiser meta disadvantaged, which is who people target against with thornmail on TT.
The only disadvantaged groups are the squishy AD carries, and they aren't disadvantaged because they're AD, they're disadvantaged because they have no health and stacking health=victory. Especially since instagibbing on TT seems a lot easier.
The only person who has stated it was removed to help AD bruisers have been players, not a Rioter.