Potential solution to the whole stack of wards thing?

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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

11-10-2012

I posted this well into the Dust Sweeping thread. About page 130. I was encouraged and wonder what the response would be if it had more visibility. Everything below is a copy/paste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Indeed - I thought about this pretty hard - and came out the other side with - what is the alternative? What is the set item that you must get every game?

A stack of wards that continuously consume gold every minute of the game.

You see the problem of pigeonholing supports is an odd one - mostly because supports are pigeonholed into getting zero items at the moment - due to the high price of consumables.
I feel like this is giving up on the whole "Make it so supports are not pigeonholed" problem. Granted I also think it's a clever solution that is going to really help make support itemization more interesting and go a long way...cough

I've been wondering about a way to give incentive and reward a team for ward buying being a team effort. I think a visible, arguable, and rewarding reason could really shift things for the lower ELOs. (Pro's do typically buy wards across team already. So I think the average solo que normal game environment is the one to target)

Well I've come up with an idea to do that. I'll keep it short by just laying out the full results of my thoughts. I will be trying to get the numbers close.

New Summoner Rift Map Buff. "Ward Rule 338". Provides a stack of "Cheaper Ward" every 3 minutes.
Cheaper Wards - The next Ward you buy has it's cost reduced by 30 gold. Stacks up to three times.

Going to need to adjust Wards. Yet I see some potential issues that need addressing. Blackout gameplay just invalidates things as the 1 ward per 3 minutes people get just get popped. So new ward to modify blackout gameplay and higher cost vision ward. So how I'd set up the new wards with attention to tooltip clarity.

Sight Ward
Gold Cost: 100 gold. (70 gold with discount)
Places an invisible ward that grants sight in an area. Lasts 3 minutes.
Sight Radius: 1100 range

Vision Ward
Gold Cost: 170 gold. (140 with discount)
Places an invisible ward that grants sight and reveals invisible units in an area. Lasts 3 minutes.
Sight Radius: 1100 range
Reveal Radius: 1100 range

Blackout Ward
Gold Cost: 125 gold.( 95 with discount)
Places an invisible ward that turns off the sight radius of all enemy wards in an area. Lasts 1 minute 30 seconds.
Suppression Radius: 700 range

The Blackout Ward is intended to replicate the Vision Wards reveals blackout power but not the sight gains. It allows a team to target an area to blackout without actually killing the enemy ward. Thus it does not break lane balance vs stealth champs by being a cheaper Vision Ward and does not force an opponent to have to replace the ward.

Oracle Elixir - Straight removal. Replace with the dust items from TT and Dom. Possibly adjust cooldown/duration to be more SR appropriate and add build paths so they don't die.

Keep Sightstone a thing that's happening. Maybe adjust to 1 ward out and 2 stacks. It just places green wards which are okay IMO.

I may have set base gold costs a little high out of fear. This adds lots of fun knobs though. Play with the knobs! It should also dramatically raise vision in SR in a strategic way while raising tactical visions power.

Anyway, this is my hair brained idea. Really hoping you see it Xyph and can tell me what you think! I really like it conceptually The player psychology implications of "Hey what's this x2?" and "Hey Top you have 3 stacks buy some wards" make me grin. So I might be missing a huge flaw and would love to know what it is.


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BadgerDrool

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11-11-2012

Ah nobody wants to give me feedback..


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Kozze

Senior Member

11-11-2012

I don't like the blackout ward. Its radius is so small that you have to know where a ward is to use it, and if you know where a ward is, why not just buy a vision ward to get both the vision AND deny vision. Yeah, it's cheaper, but not that much cheaper.


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Sona Kisses

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Those wards are pretty expensive...


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Raging Alc

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Why are you intentionally trying to make things more difficult for supports.


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BadgerDrool

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11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozze View Post
I don't like the blackout ward. Its radius is so small that you have to know where a ward is to use it, and if you know where a ward is, why not just buy a vision ward to get both the vision AND deny vision. Yeah, it's cheaper, but not that much cheaper.
Radius is much bigger then it seems. Only the enemy ward needs to be within range so the area it can potentially black out is 700+1100 assuming a sight ward at exactly 700 range.

As for "How much cheaper does it need to be?" I'm unsure. That's part of why I put in Sweeper items. At some point it's cheaper to just get a sweeper IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WellFriedChicken View Post
Those wards are pretty expensive...
Yeah I'm a little concerned about that but I didn't want to suggest the discount dramatically reduces cost to ward across the game. So I used current costs as a base with discount. Sight for example is a +25 gold increase with a 30 reduction for a net 5 gold cheaper. Vision I wanted to really push up in cost overall. Blackout is at vision's current cost and is cheaper with discount then non-discount sight ward.

Adjustments could be deflating discount and lowering full cost at a 1:1 rate. That would make them cheaper without the discount. Current discount is pretty high in part to make the # look significant. 5 gc would feel weak but 30 gc adds up fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raging Alc View Post
Why are you intentionally trying to make things more difficult for supports.
To kill "One person gets all the wards". Make no mistake I want to make "One person does all the warding" not only feel bad but be a huge mistake.

I want Support to get Sightstone and the Sweeper items as they are one time buys. Thereby letting them move their gold into other areas. I want everyone to buy 1 ward per 3 minutes game time. Rather then a nerf to support it should prove very helpful as they spend less time wandering to ward and more time near an ally, getting XP, and aiding kill.

Remember for bot lane this incentives the exact # of wards Sightstone is intended to get. If two players in a duo lane merely keep up with discount they will be maintaining that 2 ward combo that mostly covers what you need for effectively all of laning phase. This gold cost is also being split between both players meaning the Support can get less themselves.

Duo lanes also gain an advantage as they can trade when they buy wards as the discount does stack. Thus the AD carry can wait on picking up any wards to afford important items and merely grab some when things get closer to mid game.

Further, Pro's already do this. Most Pro games involve 6+ characters with a ward somewhere in their inventory. They should be able to adjust with less fuss.


PS:
I didn't touch it but one potential issue I have with BoW is feedback. A vision ward tells you that you just turned off sight. BoW causing nearby wards to show up but be untargetable would let you know they are there without allowing their destruction.

It might also be necessary for BoW to show it's own radius passively with an animation or circle. Simply so you know where it's coverage. It's own radius can also be adjusted but I think it'd be kind of nuts at 1100 range.

The core concept is also kept intact if instead of hitting the Wards it hits the vision granted. If it was a Fog Ward and "A radius around this ward cannot be seen by enemy wards". This it does not care about enemy ward placement and merely guarantees black patches.

PPS:
Also possible for the discount to not be the same for each ward.


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BadgerDrool

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11-11-2012

Might as well poke it one more time.


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BadgerDrool

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12-07-2012

Since Xyph's on the prowl I'm giving this a poke..

Wanted to say that I somewhat feel that Spirit Stone is a far superior design to consumable wards.