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Darius & Twisted Tree Line

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Kaeltara

Member

11-10-2012

Edit: Would like players to post there ideas here as well, the concept of Tier Darius : It's Darius... "How does he do it" makes it clear something needs to change.

What people don't understand is if the Darius is good and you even try to play some counter comp(its blind pick now you cant) he will just hang back and just CS. This allows him to grab 2 of the new items which are to be blunt to strong on the champion Darius. Noxian Guillotine a player then regaining 200hp while guillotine again? So he just double killed and got back 400hp? And done all in true damage.
Yes he has no escape but there is a bit more to him to spaming R. Most player have just yet to see a truly good one in twisted tree line yet.

My friends and I have been discussing how this could be fixed. We came up with alot of answers the best one being code Darius differently for 3v3. Nerfing the items that make him strong would only weaken every one else that is doing fine or is with in the proper parameters that riot seems to like and is considered balanced. Another would also be reducing his coeff on all items including hp, armor, damage, healing ect gained through items.

If not properly addressed he will just remain always banned in 3v3 ranked or if they just choose to nerf all items they will have alot of problems.
If you read the new item changes they plan to make, you can see a few of their ideas are cop outs vs trying to fix very clear issues. We call this the banaid effect and typically never works well and some one some where feels the nerf more then others.

I'm not on the band wagon ranting ban Darius over and over. But its still in its beta and I would like people to think about how this Champion works(& too well at that) in Twisted Tree Line. Current Meta, Items, how the champion interacts with a smaller number of players.


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doombotMECHA

Senior Member

11-10-2012

yeah hes kinda strong kinda like jax on 5v5
and it'll stay that way


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Kaeltara

Member

11-10-2012

Well its still in beta which correct me if I'm wrong is a testing phase. Riot stated them self how they would like people to play all champions to provide a fun and equal experience for all.
Not addressing such issues and pushing new champions has been there track record in the past but I was hoping they might try to put some time into the new Twisted Tree Line.

Other wise all that mumbo jumbo about player feed back was just to sate the mobs need to feel they are important to the development of the game.


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Mavrik V

Recruiter

11-10-2012

There's no way to 'fix' Darius without totally ruining his viability. He's designed at his core to wtfbbq anyone 1v1, which in and of itself is all that is necessary to win a 3v3 teamfight. You drop his damage and he now contributes nothing. They could possibly remove the whole ult freshing thing and life would be better for everyone, but even then Darius still would be a must-pick/must-ban. You could change his ult to do magic damage like Garen, and now Darius can't kill anything. It's a tough predicament.


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Kaeltara

Member

11-10-2012

Keep the Ideas coming, I would like people to contribute there ideas as well, trying to fix something that needs fixing seems like a worthy idea.

Just agreeing hes just a bit to strong does not help, but only makes it clearer he either needs a change or riot just plans to let him be banned every game.


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Dreampod

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Gabriel Logan:
There's no way to 'fix' Darius without totally ruining his viability. He's designed at his core to wtfbbq anyone 1v1, which in and of itself is all that is necessary to win a 3v3 teamfight. You drop his damage and he now contributes nothing. They could possibly remove the whole ult freshing thing and life would be better for everyone, but even then Darius still would be a must-pick/must-ban. You could change his ult to do magic damage like Garen, and now Darius can't kill anything. It's a tough predicament.


Fixing Darius is incredibly easy - make his ultimate deal mitigatable damage. Logically it should be physical damage but given his passive on E and last whisper it could easily reach near-true damage but I don't think it would be too problematic given that maxing E earlier (most people put the final 4 points in between 13-18) has some actual tradeoff and would require him to invest 2300 gold into his offence rather than building straight tanky. Once players can build against him he is much easier to fight against since you can counterbuild. The other handy thing would be if the price he paid for infinite refreshes was that good counterplay could 'burn' his ult, right now it refreshes and can be used again if you Zhonya's, flash, pool, or otherwise 'dodge' it and if you stun him mid 'dunk' it finishes up when the CC wears off regardless of distance. That means playing against him properly could use up his ult by good counter play the first time he tried to use it, preventing him from following that up with another two dunks.

Edit: If you convert Darius' ult to physical damage and increase the base damage by 30% it should be fairly equivalent at level 6 and drop off as the game progresses (compared to current) unless he invests in Last Whisper which would just keep it close to matching current performance. At that point investing in armor, even if he maxes E and gets Last Whisper, provides significant increases in survivability and because it isn't as easy to predict he is likely to lose a bit of damage 'efficiency' by waiting until after it would kill to ensure that he gets a refresh. For example, at level 18 buying a Zhonya's Hourglass on Brand against a full penetration Darius (55%) with the 20% increase to account for base armor would take him from dealing 660 damage to 565 damage, a 15% decrease. Getting a Chain Vest at level 6 would take it from 317 damage to 238, a 25% decrease. This would shift his power into late game when he had the extra penetration instead of dominating from midgame to end.


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Kaeltara

Member

11-10-2012

Bump, I want riot to notice the community's strong feelings that Darius cant just have the first ban pick as the only answer.

Sam said it best: "Tier Darius : It's Darius... "How does he do it"


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WillWW

Senior Member

11-10-2012

I used to not think much of him. But since SI came out, I have a burning hatred for him. Go full tank with like 3.5k hp and still out dps you. Dumb.


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Mavrik V

Recruiter

11-10-2012

Quote:
Dreampod:
Fixing Darius is incredibly easy - make his ultimate deal mitigatable damage. Logically it should be physical damage but given his passive on E and last whisper it could easily reach near-true damage but I don't think it would be too problematic given that maxing E earlier (most people put the final 4 points in between 13-18) has some actual tradeoff and would require him to invest 2300 gold into his offence rather than building straight tanky. Once players can build against him he is much easier to fight against since you can counterbuild. The other handy thing would be if the price he paid for infinite refreshes was that good counterplay could 'burn' his ult, right now it refreshes and can be used again if you Zhonya's, flash, pool, or otherwise 'dodge' it and if you stun him mid 'dunk' it finishes up when the CC wears off regardless of distance. That means playing against him properly could use up his ult by good counter play the first time he tried to use it, preventing him from following that up with another two dunks.

Edit: If you convert Darius' ult to physical damage and increase the base damage by 30% it should be fairly equivalent at level 6 and drop off as the game progresses (compared to current) unless he invests in Last Whisper which would just keep it close to matching current performance. At that point investing in armor, even if he maxes E and gets Last Whisper, provides significant increases in survivability and because it isn't as easy to predict he is likely to lose a bit of damage 'efficiency' by waiting until after it would kill to ensure that he gets a refresh. For example, at level 18 buying a Zhonya's Hourglass on Brand against a full penetration Darius (55%) with the 20% increase to account for base armor would take him from dealing 660 damage to 565 damage, a 15% decrease. Getting a Chain Vest at level 6 would take it from 317 damage to 238, a 25% decrease. This would shift his power into late game when he had the extra penetration instead of dominating from midgame to end.


I get what you're saying, and it makes sense from an overall DPS point-of-view, however I believe Riot designed his kit to have a specific purpose, and that purpose is to execute people. Reducing damage on his ultimate/changing his ultimate away from true damage kind of negates that purpose. To actually balance Darius out, I believe it would be best to reduce the base damage on his Q/passive (and increase the AD ratio) and/or increase the length of his cooldowns to reduce his combo'ing ability. I think Darius obliterating a single target is fun and fine, but him doing it so absurdly quickly, and then chaining it quickly to multiple targets is not fine.

From a logical point of view, a Darius ult kill requires you to first drop a target to 20-30% health before casting; how does he do that? Well, currently Darius simply Q's, autos, W, autos, E, autos, and now the R is ready, pretty much regardless of the target's health and mitigation. This 100-0ing people in less than 7 seconds is a real problem, not so much the dunking. The dunking is a ramification of his base Q and passive stacks damage. I also find it odd that you can't find any tooltips anywhere regarding Darius's passive damage and scaling.


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Dreampod

Senior Member

11-10-2012

Quote:
Gabriel Logan:
I get what you're saying, and it makes sense from an overall DPS point-of-view, however I believe Riot designed his kit to have a specific purpose, and that purpose is to execute people. Reducing damage on his ultimate/changing his ultimate away from true damage kind of negates that purpose. To actually balance Darius out, I believe it would be best to reduce the base damage on his Q/passive (and increase the AD ratio) and/or increase the length of his cooldowns to reduce his combo'ing ability. I think Darius obliterating a single target is fun and fine, but him doing it so absurdly quickly, and then chaining it quickly to multiple targets is not fine.

From a logical point of view, a Darius ult kill requires you to first drop a target to 20-30% health before casting; how does he do that? Well, currently Darius simply Q's, autos, W, autos, E, autos, and now the R is ready, pretty much regardless of the target's health and mitigation. This 100-0ing people in less than 7 seconds is a real problem, not so much the dunking. The dunking is a ramification of his base Q and passive stacks damage. I also find it odd that you can't find any tooltips anywhere regarding Darius's passive damage and scaling.


I don't think that true damage is at all necessary to have true damage to have a strong 'execute'. Garen's for example is great and the extra damage for stacked hemorrhage on Darius' provides the same theorectical 'build up and explode them' mechanic just that it doesn't actually take any real time to build up to the 'and explode them' part. The issue with the way Darius' ult functions that adjusting his other abilities won't help is that he can be doing 2-3 stack ults without actually applying them on purpose and knock out the last 20% of each enemies health with his allies doing the other 80% without his involvement. If his Q got hemorrhage application removed that would be an alternate adjustment that would go a long way towards reducing his steamroll in fights because he'd be forced to add an extra autoattack for his first target combo and 2-3 extra autoattacks (since he has been stacking Q bleeds every couple seconds during the fight) per target for each further in order to get maximum damage on his dunk.


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