@MWAB - Quit nerfing MS for APs.

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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

12-17-2013

Are you trying to bring the league of bruisers back? :-\

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBE
Blackfire Torch

Movement speed lowered to 5% from 10%
Bad enough you took it from Sweeper and stuck it on an item that makes mages give up engagement survivability (due to no longer having the pinch of HP from a Sweeper buy); but now you're dropping it down?

So mages get Blackfire Torch (5%), Lich Bane (5%), and Twin Shadows (6%).

And ADs get what again? Entropy (20 on-hit & 60 on-kill flat), Phage (20 on-hit & 60 on-kill flat), Trinity Force (8% and 20 on-hit & 60 on-kill flat), Phantom Dancer (5%), Statikk Shiv (6%), Youmuu's (20% for 6 seconds every 45), Zeal (5%), Zephyr (10%).

Not only do ADs get a lot more MS items over all but a majority of their speed boosts are just flat out stronger. Mix in the fact that Twin Shadows and Lich Bane are niche picks and BFT is really the only 'universal' MS that mages get. Meanwhile AD Bruisers (or the elusive carry) can splash at least two or three of any of those listed items no problem and still do well.

This isn't even covering the fact that your average AD has a higher base movement speed than your average mage. Which is a problem because Dominion isn't a laning map. You can't keep your opponent at arms length and visible for 20+ minutes. You need the speed to deal with the close-quarters nature of Dominion's jungle-heavy engagement gameplay. Not to even mention needing all the help you can get to try and dodge bottom lane ganks amplified by speed-shrines and wall hopping.

Please...tell me we're getting another AP-MS item to compensate; right?


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Reikken

Senior Member

12-17-2013

man I really really REALLY hope there's another AP item coming that isn't a must buy but gives a good chunk of MS. Maybe even something similar to ghostblade's burst MS. That would be really cool.


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Rebonack

Senior Member

12-17-2013

They should just move the Movespeed to Banner of Command to make it more attractive.


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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

12-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebonack View Post
They should just move the Movespeed to Banner of Command to make it more attractive.
20% CDR
chunk of AP
enables easy split push strats?

already seems like a good item to me


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ImpendingDeath

Senior Member

12-17-2013

This BFT change really aggravates me. There's absolutely no good reason for it and I don't know what MWAB is thinking. I don't like that there's only one person in control of all the Dominion changes, especially considering that the changes to Hextech Sweeper also removed MS for mages, and now it's a fairly underwhelming item.


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IronAegis

Senior Member

12-17-2013

I'm confused..did anyone think this was a problem?


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BuddhaRice

Senior Member

12-17-2013

I, for one, love the fact APs are getting nerfed. LET THE LEAGUE OF BRUlSERS COME BACK WEE


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Sauron

Senior Member

12-17-2013

See, the problem is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuri Ono View Post
So mages get Blackfire Torch (5%), Lich Bane (5%), and Twin Shadows (6%).
Blackfire Torch -- Absurdly overpowered.
Lich Bane -- Only bought for the onhit on a few champions.
Twin Shadows -- Decent item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakuri Ono View Post
And ADs get what again? Entropy (20 on-hit & 60 on-kill flat), Phage (20 on-hit & 60 on-kill flat), Trinity Force (8% and 20 on-hit & 60 on-kill flat), Phantom Dancer (5%), Statikk Shiv (6%), Youmuu's (20% for 6 seconds every 45), Zeal (5%), Zephyr (10%).
Entropy -- Bad item.
Phage -- Bad item.
Trinity Force -- Only bought for the onhit on a few champions.
Phantom Dancer -- Bad item.
Statikk Shiv -- Bad item.
Youmuu's Ghostblade -- Good item.
Zeal -- Bad item.
Zephyr -- Decent item.

If we toss out the items that do nothing but put you behind, all we have left is BFT versus Youmuu's and I think we all know BFT wins that by a large margin.

Bruisers having higher base MS is offset by most bruisers having to close the gap to fight, and sometimes not specced into utility at all, and also may not have MS quints due to everyone having scaling armor (except Thresh). Bruisers that get free gap closers tend to be overpowered on an individual basis due to their ѕhitty design (Riven/Lee/Jax/J4, all typical bans in 3v3) while other ADs that have gap closers have to go glass (Talon/Yi/Pantheon/Yasuo) and can be bursted down.

The high-gold system is supposed to be roshambo in 1v1 with specific champions having deviations (Such as Lucian vs bruisers, Trundle vs mages, etc.). Mages don't win their roshambo vs bruisers by facetanking them. Or at least they shouldn't be, but they currently are -- because 10% MS with their abilities being ranged, on top of up to 6% MS from runes/masteries over a bruiser means they just kite endlessly if they survive the gap closer (which they probably did due to free stats), with the second cycle avoided via Wooglet's.

Mages have pretty much everything handed to them on a silver platter except for their base stats and are one of the strongest roles right now. The fact that their overpowered items translate almost directly to the already-overpowered support role makes S4 even worse. If you want to complain about a role getting unwarranted nerfs or only being viable for a select few champions of that role, try ADC or true tanks (ones that aren't support champions abusing S4 balance).

I fully support BFT being nerfed. Personally, I'd love to see the item permanently gone. It was introduced against all feedback and has been nothing but an overpowered mess causing degenerate gameplay. More people have quit Dominion/TT over BFT than any other change.


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kavi

Senior Member

12-17-2013

Yes, Mage itemization with BFT is generous, and yes, BFT is stupidly overpowered. The way BFT #1 worked - which I'm still not sure was as intended - and the way BFT #2 works - is a problem.

But there were good reasons for it being introduced; namely, that low-mobility mages simply were not viable on Dominion 4v4 for the better part of Season 2. Suddenly BFT, suddenly Teemo, Zyra, etc.

Mages DO need good items on Dom, just because the nature of the map lends itself to tank bruisers. They don't necessarily need BFT, but personally I would be very upset if we went back to bruiser dominance.

What I find most confusing about this change is that they seem to have taken the one stat from BFT which Mages really NEED and don't simply want. Nerf the active, for heaven's sake...


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Malah

Senior Member

12-17-2013

I have never regarded MS as anything other than a luxury purchase on mages and still do.

If you can't stay away from people with a class characterized around CC and disengagement, you have problems. Bruisers might get a lot of free stats, but mages are the ones who end up with mechanics most of the time.

There's also the faint possibility that I couldn't care less simply because I don't tend to build BFT on any of my mages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
Mages have pretty much everything handed to them on a silver platter except for their base stats and are one of the strongest roles right now.
I've been saying this for a year, but by all means let's get people to listen now that Sauron built a wall with it.