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A suggestion: Since AD casters are getting attention

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67chrome

Senior Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Exdeadman:
I'm not confused, I know what you're saying. I was trying to use the OP's example to show how statistically impossible it is to balance an item with negative stats.


A likely story >:3

Quote:
axesandspears:
As Exdeadman is saying. There is no satisfactory point of balance for any item suggestion that includes negative stats.
Every suggestion will either:
-Be underwhelming for the cost in all cases.
-Be overwhelming for the cost in a few select cases where the negative doesn't matter.
-Be extremely ackward: If you really need all of the stats, the item should just have lower values of the positive stats and skip the negatives.
-Come across as a pure stat stick with one of the problems from the first two. The item will soley exist for the sake of existing or soley exist to be abusive in select cases and worth less in others.


Well, this is a pretty neat and concise list with the problems of negative stats. I'll see how well I can color within the lines, and keep the items as un ackward as possible.

Quote:
Exdeadman:
For an item like the suggested one to be viable (again, just as a point of comparison, I honestly and directly challenge you to design an item with negative stats that this cannot apply to, substituting statistics), either the AD on the item would have to be noticeably higher than average, or the item would have to cost significantly less than an item with similar AD. Otherwise, I'll just say **** it and grab Bloodthirster.


Not sure exactly what you mean by the "substituting statistics" part there, and you strike me as someone who would take considerable issue with even the most finely crafted items made by Xypherous himself, but W/E. I'll make 3 so your critiques are more entertaining. **** it.

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67chrome:

Item Idea #1
Morgenstern

Pickaxe: 975 gold
Chain Vest: 700 gold
Recipe: 715 gold
_________________________
Total: 2390 gold

+50 Armor
+35 Attack Damage
Unique Passive: -20% total attack speed
Unique Passive: +20% physical damage inflicted.
Unique Active: Causes all ability casts that strike at least 1 hostile target to restore 60 health over 8 seconds, active lasts for 8 seconds. Healing stacks up to 5 times. 45 second cooldown. (Healing effects are reduced to 40 health restored per stack on ranged units).


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67chrome:

Item Idea #2
Black Scepter

Giant's Belt: 1110 gold
Cloak of AGL: 830 gold
Recipe: 405 gold
_________________________
Total: 2345 gold

+25% Critical Strike Damage
+450 Health
Unique Passive: Reduces critical strike chance to 0%.
Unique Passive: Converts 2% critical strike chance/4% critical strike damage to increase damage inflicted with physical damage abilities by 1%.


Quote:
67chrome:

Item Idea #3
Wind Zealot's Katars

Recurve Bow: 1050 gold
Dagger: 420 gold
Cloth Armor: 300 gold
Recipe: 700 gold
_________________________
Total: 2470 gold

+60% Attack Speed
+25 Armor
Unique Passive: Reduces auto-attack damage to 50% and all associated on-hit damage to 60%, but causes attacks to be delivered in a rapid 1-2 succession, performing 2 attacks with every strike.
Unique Passive: Causes each strike to steal 8 health (as true damage) and 4 armor from the target struck. Bonus armor and armor debuff lasts for 8 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times, each stack renews the duration.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

11-12-2012

Quote:
67chrome:
A likely story >:3

Not sure exactly what you mean by the "substituting statistics" part there, and you strike me as someone who would take considerable issue with even the most finely crafted items made by Xypherous himself, but W/E. I'll make 3 so your critiques are more entertaining. **** it.

"Substituting statistics" meaning "regardless of whether the item is for AD, AP, Health, Armor, MR..."

Now, to each of those item suggestions.
#1, the negative is almost completely negated by the positive unique passive. In an ideal situation, you're losing about 4% of your DPS and that's only if you rely wholly on auto attacks for damage. Not only that, but the item is relatively cheap and gives a chunk of Armor. You've basically replaced Atma's Impaler with an item that's good on any physical champion. As for the active...I'm not sure how that works in the first place. Is it just an AoE blast that marks targets like Shen? And how would it distinguish ranged from other units when the game doesn't classify champions?

#2, basically you've made crit stacking even more legitimate. Forget the old rules where Crit% caps at 100%; grab this thing and 5 Phantom Dancers, and you've got a 75% permanent increase to your DPS at 2.5 AS...okay, no, I don't really believe that. Actually, I seriously think that's a weak passive. Criticals are guaranteed 200% damage, 250% with IE. With this item, IE and 4 PDs (the maximum possible crit bonus outside of innate/runes/masteries), you'd have 191.25% damage per attack. With just IE and PD, your average auto attack is dealing 182.5% damage, and I still have 4 item slots left over.

EDIT: I misread what 2 said; if that only applies to abilities, that just makes it even weaker, really. There are three items currently that give both AD and Crit, Youmuu's, IE and Atma's (which is a last-slot situational item). You'd increase your spell damage, at maximum, by 48% without runes and masteries IF you follow a very pigeonholed build.

#3, So now each auto attack pretends that it's Master Yi (or old Udyr Tiger Stance). I can see one champion liking this idea--Twitch, because true damage and super fast stacks--and then nobody else would want this ever. There would be no reason to buy an item that literally just pretends you're landing more auto attacks while dealing the same DPS (less if you're using an on-hit build, which is the only one that relies heavily on attack speed) other than to screw around.


And I've seen some of Xypherous' designs. I honestly at first thought "what the hell is he thinking with that?" But then I considered that he's pioneering a massive item rework, so a lot of the older balance axioms are going to change.


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-12-2012

I sort of feel like I should have started my own item ideas in another post, feels like the discussion on negative stats is a bit de-railed from were this thread started, but W/E.

Quote:
Exdeadman:
"Substituting statistics" meaning "regardless of whether the item is for AD, AP, Health, Armor, MR..."


Ah, all right. Makes sense when I read it now.

Quote:
Exdeadman:

Now, to each of those item suggestions.
#1, the negative is almost completely negated by the positive unique passive. In an ideal situation, you're losing about 4% of your DPS and that's only if you rely wholly on auto attacks for damage. Not only that, but the item is relatively cheap and gives a chunk of Armor. You've basically replaced Atma's Impaler with an item that's good on any physical champion. As for the active...I'm not sure how that works in the first place. Is it just an AoE blast that marks targets like Shen? And how would it distinguish ranged from other units when the game doesn't classify champions?


Negating the negative is pretty much the point with all of these, though for this one you'll only benefit from it if you rely more on physical burst (I really don't see the point of negative stats if they aren't explicitly related to what the item is supposed to accomplish). Still, I'm not sure how well AD ability scaling is, so a 20% boost in overall physical damage output could end up being better than a 20% boost in AD. It should benefit champions with auto-attack re-sets, though most "AD casters" have a passive that says "Build attack speed to get the most out of me and your AD". The active is basically supposed to be something like an ammo-system spell vamp, were you just restore a flat value if you peg anything with one of your abilities - sort of like a Youmuu's active for burst-reliant champions, were casting abilities rewards you with a type of sustain that isn't directly tied to item scaling (well, like Youmuu's in you can benefit from the passive for a bit). Actually, It's really Innervating Locket's passive on an ammo-system that requires you damage things so you use it in-combat rather than building up your tear. Both the 20% boost to all physical damage and ability-based healing should be more beneficial to "AD Casters" than AA reliant champions. As for range vs. melee - Frozen Mallet, Youmuu's Ghostblade, and Tiamat already make a distinction between melee and ranged attacks (even in the case of Kayle's toggle range now as well). WC3/DotA/HoN can recognize melee and ranged units as well. (Dota (and thus by extension HoN) actually causes a shield item to block more damage on melee champs, which isn't AA reliant at all).

Quote:
Exdeadman:
#2, basically you've made crit stacking even more legitimate. Forget the old rules where Crit% caps at 100%; grab this thing and 5 Phantom Dancers, and you've got a 75% permanent increase to your DPS at 2.5 AS...okay, no, I don't really believe that. Actually, I seriously think that's a weak passive. Criticals are guaranteed 200% damage, 250% with IE. With this item, IE and 4 PDs (the maximum possible crit bonus outside of innate/runes/masteries), you'd have 191.25% damage per attack. With just IE and PD, your average auto attack is dealing 182.5% damage, and I still have 4 item slots left over.


I went for "physical damage with abilities" over an AD boost with this, sort of hard to convey that boost in short and concise terms I guess (sorry about my wording there). The reason the ratio is somewhat low is because burst casts having an extra % scaling is potentially broken, especially on survivable champions, were the 30% from Rabadons more or less equates to the AP version of critical strike scaling for bursty champions. Also, I didn't think converting any critical strike chance over 100% was necessary for this, but as you pointed out it really doesn't matter either way. Also, this one is more designed for a champion like Talon that would allow his burst to scale in accordance to his squishiness, so building glass-cannonish with crits will see a solid DPS reward, though if I did the math correctly any bruiser that picked up a Triforce and utilized abilities regularly probably wouldn't mind picking it up later on. I'm not sure how I feel about it's synergy with Atma's Impaler though. But for all intents and purposes, it converts Critical Strikes to bonus Ability Damage, and should allow an IE to be converted to more or less a Deathcap, should you choose to invest a **** ton of gold on an item that offers 0 survivability or sustain.

Quote:
Exdeadman:
#3, So now each auto attack pretends that it's Master Yi (or old Udyr Tiger Stance). I can see one champion liking this idea--Twitch, because true damage and super fast stacks--and then nobody else would want this ever. There would be no reason to buy an item that literally just pretends you're landing more auto attacks while dealing the same DPS (less if you're using an on-hit build, which is the only one that relies heavily on attack speed) other than to screw around.


Yeah, basically master-yi passive (or Zealots from Starcraft). And 60% damage on on-hit effects equals 120% damage on on-hit effects with the 2 attack split. Some things like Black Cleaver, Wit's End, Rageblade, and Malady stack hit each hit as well, so hitting faster is better in such cases (the 60% on hit damage is more or less the reason to get this one). More hits also means more Phage procs. Also, a wide range of champions have passives with an on-hit effect that more or less spells out "get attack speed and use your auto-attacks ". (Renekton gets rage, Shyvana gets rage, Tryndamere gets rage, Skarner gets CDR, Pantheon recharges his shield, Riven unleashes a sheen-like effect that can stack, Lee-Sin can restore energy per hit, Xin Zhao restores health every 3rd hit, Jax gets more attack speed and unleashes an AP burst every 3rd hit, Fiora's Burst of Speed grants movement speed with each strike). As far as the "on third hit" things go, landing 2 attacks is easier than landing 3, so for poke purposes on 3-strike stuff that could potentially be handy. Attack speed is entirely underrated as a stat IMO, though arguably not to useful when your target is moving/your dealing with lots of CC.

Quote:
Exdeadman:
And I've seen some of Xypherous' designs. I honestly at first thought "what the hell is he thinking with that?" But then I considered that he's pioneering a massive item rework, so a lot of the older balance axioms are going to change.


Yeah, a lot of items in games depend heavily on all the other items available for relevance and balance, if you can work on all of them at once it's not hard to make a wide range of crazy stuff work. I'm pretty excited to see what he's made.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

11-12-2012

Quote:
67chrome:
As for range vs. melee - Frozen Mallet, Youmuu's Ghostblade, and Tiamat already make a distinction between melee and ranged attacks (even in the case of Kayle's toggle range now as well). WC3/DotA/HoN can recognize melee and ranged units as well. (Dota (and thus by extension HoN) actually causes a shield item to block more damage on melee champs, which isn't AA reliant at all).

No, League doesn't classify ranged and melee units. What it classifies are melee attacks, ranged attacks and spells. THAT is what allows them to apply those special effects to Mallet and other similar items, the fact that the champion's own attack is ranged.

Spells, on the other hand, are not recorded as either one. A spell with 125 range is recorded the same as a spell with 25000 range, it's still spell damage. Even items are marked as spell damage for the sake of simplicity (except on-hits). So, however you meant that passive to react, it would be very difficult to get it to work properly because spells are spells, not ranged/melee attacks.
Quote:
67chrome:
I'm not sure how I feel about it's synergy with Atma's Impaler though. But for all intents and purposes, it converts Critical Strikes to bonus Ability Damage, and should allow an IE to be converted to more or less a Deathcap, should you choose to invest a **** ton of gold on an item that offers 0 survivability or sustain.

Hey, if you've got innate escape mechanics or high built-in defense (lookin' at you, Poppy), it could be very much worth it to skip the defense building for a huge damage booster.
Quote:
67chrome:
60% damage on on-hit effects equals 120% damage on on-hit effects with the 2 attack split.

Ah, I misread that part as well; "by" was what I saw, when you wrote "to"

Okay, so with that cleared up, I now can see Shyvana wanting it (what with Bloodrazor disappearing). Other than that, there really are very few champions who need a lot of AS and proc on-hit effects that work well with stacking. Also would be very time consuming to build it to work with every on-hit effect properly, and you wouldn't make anyone happy with how Twitch works with it; either people would be complaining because True damage shouldn't be reduced, or people would be complaining because he doesn't lose on-hit damage from it.


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Quote:
Exdeadman:
No, League doesn't classify ranged and melee units. What it classifies are melee attacks, ranged attacks and spells. THAT is what allows them to apply those special effects to Mallet and other similar items, the fact that the champion's own attack is ranged.

Spells, on the other hand, are not recorded as either one. A spell with 125 range is recorded the same as a spell with 25000 range, it's still spell damage. Even items are marked as spell damage for the sake of simplicity (except on-hits). So, however you meant that passive to react, it would be very difficult to get it to work properly because spells are spells, not ranged/melee attacks.


Xypherous (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31380352#31380352)just mentioned in the Tiamat page that units are classified as melee or ranged for LoL, including Kayle. Also, it's painfully easy to flag units as melee or ranged in things like the Starcraft2 and WC3 editors - even if you create your own system and ignore the melee and ranged flags already there. The idea behind the unique active is just to allow melee units to restore health when they hit stuff with spells, I wasn't going for "melee" spells, because as you mention parsing exactly what the range of spells are as melee or ranged offers for a very convoluted mechanic.

Quote:
Exdeadman:
Okay, so with that cleared up, I now can see Shyvana wanting it (what with Bloodrazor disappearing). Other than that, there really are very few champions who need a lot of AS and proc on-hit effects that work well with stacking. Also would be very time consuming to build it to work with every on-hit effect properly, and you wouldn't make anyone happy with how Twitch works with it; either people would be complaining because True damage shouldn't be reduced, or people would be complaining because he doesn't lose on-hit damage from it.


Yeah, double-strike is probably a bit much, especially considering on-hit stacking DoTs that deal true damage. Was kinda going crazier with each item I came up with.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

11-15-2012

Huh...they're actually classifying ranged and melee now.

Well, that's news to me. Just another way Xypherous is rewriting the code of the system for Season 3.


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