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A suggestion: Since AD casters are getting attention

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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

11-08-2012

Quote:
67chrome:
...that argument could be applied to pretty much every single item in the entire game, save for the specific reference to the negatives.

Items are balanced when they don't cause the group that will be using it to really shift them out of balance, being considered "worthless" on a variety of champions is something all items suffer from. Rabadon's Deathcap, Chalice of Harmony, and Sorcerer's Shoes are completely worthless on a champion like Riven and they are still well-balanced items.

An item doesn't need to be a viable pick on every single champion to be worth implementing in the game, it only needs to be viable on a handful of champions, such as a general class or roll (ie AD scaling bruisers and assassins). And being "too damn good" is something you could argue things like Warmogs are on champions that are well-suited to it like Mundo.

It is true that an item doesn't need to be viable on every champion. It is also true that certain items have better effect on one champion than another. That's not what I'm talking about; my point went over your head apparently. We're not talking niche appeal like Manamune; that item is viable and efficient on any AD champion with a mana pool, just not frequently used because of metabuilding tendencies.


The problem with designing an item that has negative stats is that in order for it to be worth it, the positives have to make up for the negative stats. This means that if an item IS worth what you pay for it, taking the negative stats into account, then it's massively over-efficient on a champion who can ignore the negatives. If the item's NOT worth as much as you pay for it, then nobody will buy it ever, because it's not worth it.

What we're talking about is an item that would be limited to champions who can abuse the item's effectiveness to a level that is overpowered, much like old Gunblade's stats (the item used to have stats worth >5k even though it only costs 3625 to buy it, and they stacked too). If I'm able to ignore a -25% Crit Chance loss, that means that the item's value is worth an extra 1153 gold to me; either the value of the item and its stats take this into account (and thus the item's underpowered and doesn't get used), or it doesn't and I get a massive efficiency boost (and thus the item's overpowered as hell on the few champions that use it).


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Redeemed Rivên

Senior Member

11-09-2012

TBH this weapon doesn't even need to lower crit chance, the fact that it doesn't offer crit already lowers its damage output for carries, and since it doesn't offer lifesteal they would still need a bt. ADC still builds ie>pd>bt>defensive item/last whisper (depending on how fed the enemy is and if they have supressions)>sell your boots and buy another pd.

However on somebody like talon this weapon would be stupid op on them since he only uses a few auto's anyways.
Another person is pantheon, the crit chance hardly affects him at all because of the passive on his e skill.


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IVlaverick

Senior Member

11-09-2012

I like the item in theory, I think the issue here is just balance. Take Blood Thirster for instance... even after nerf it's still a god item that can be stacked with itself, and gains AD with each minion kill... farm two waves with two BT's and you're a force to be reckoned with.

In this items case, I'm thinking more along the lines of 70 AD base with reduced reductions on atk speed and crit. make the item not such a big deal but good enough on certain champs that won't feel the lack of atk speed or crit so much to where they are still viable. (I'm not very mathematically oriented IMO so I couldn't calculate all these for you guys... prefer music staffs to equations lol) But I mean think about it. Deth Cap is meant to really set the AP's up for huge bursts.

AD's are more about sustain, and while this would set them back slightly, it could be more item specific for champs that already had a steroid and would be bought after Dancer's, IE, etc... so by the time you buy it you will A) Have a champs that can use it effectively or you're a noobie, and B) enough crit to where the slight reduc wouldn't be so bad. Plus with the rework in armor pen coming, this item could actually be even more of a help on AD's

Side Note: I wanna see more items with CC from Riot. Hextech Revolver's slow is okay, but a stun or disable item would be awesome.

hell I don't care if it's Batman's grapple and it single targets one enemy champion in range and roots them to the ground for 1.5 seconds... SOMETHING to give right click champs more viability in higher levels.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-09-2012

@Deadman, this seems like an excellent addition to your List. Are Negative Stats already featured there?


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Exdeadman:
The problem with designing an item that has negative stats is that in order for it to be worth it, the positives have to make up for the negative stats. This means that if an item IS worth what you pay for it, taking the negative stats into account, then it's massively over-efficient on a champion who can ignore the negatives. If the item's NOT worth as much as you pay for it, then nobody will buy it ever, because it's not worth it.


That depends on how you decide to balance things, there is no end-all be-all price range for anything on the actual items in LoL, so it's entirely possible that an item such as the one mentioned in the OP would have it's price set to only be cost-efficient for champions that can ignore the negatives (which seems to be the things point and purpose in the first place). Beyond that there is some breathing room between "massively over-efficient" and "nobody will buy it ever", which could be solved with gold costs alone. Which is primarily why I don't think pure cost efficiency is a good argument against the item proposed, as costs are flexible and the solution to such a problem is changing numbers. Basically, you can balance things around how they will be used and what they will be used for rather than sticking to a ridged and abstract formula.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

11-11-2012

Quote:
TheLastBaron88:
@Deadman, this seems like an excellent addition to your List. Are Negative Stats already featured there?

It is indeed already there
Quote:
67chrome:
That depends on how you decide to balance things, there is no end-all be-all price range for anything on the actual items in LoL, so it's entirely possible that an item such as the one mentioned in the OP would have it's price set to only be cost-efficient for champions that can ignore the negatives (which seems to be the things point and purpose in the first place). Beyond that there is some breathing room between "massively over-efficient" and "nobody will buy it ever", which could be solved with gold costs alone. Which is primarily why I don't think pure cost efficiency is a good argument against the item proposed, as costs are flexible and the solution to such a problem is changing numbers. Basically, you can balance things around how they will be used and what they will be used for rather than sticking to a ridged and abstract formula.

Where the hell do you think I GOT the ridged and abstract formula? Did it just accidentally happen?

The argument of cost efficiency is a valid basis for how an item will be used. AP champions don't touch Infinity Edge, Manaless don't touch Archangel's/Manamune, etc. because while the items may be cost-efficient, they're not efficient for that class of champion.


Y'know, wait, stop. I'm horrible at using words to explain things. Let me instead use numbers; I'll show specifically why the OP's suggestion is beyond busted, and then I'll try to use words after that.
Quote:
Furied:
+92 Attack Damage
+21% Total Bonus AD
-20% total attack speed
- 25% flat critical strike chance.

92 AD=3373.6 gold
20% AS=525 gold
25% Crit=1152.7 gold

The OP suggested it cost between 3300-3900 gold, right? Well, just off the base stats, it's only worth 1695.9 gold if you're affected by the AS and Crit values. However, if you're able to ignore both of those, it's worth 3373.6 gold.

Now, a value for the 21% increase to all AD is difficult to put a price on; there's no base tier +AD% item to balance off of; also, base AD ranges from 45.45 to 129.7 and items range from 10-110. To the champions that are affected by Crit/AS negatives, they'd be paying >1600-2200 gold for the passive; the ones that aren't are getting it for anywhere between free-526 gold

So this item's just barely efficient--just barely worth buying over, say, Bloodthirster or the new Black Cleaver--on the champions who don't use AS or Crit. If you DO use AS or Crit, you take a huge negative for that %AD passive. So not only is this item absolute garbage to most AD champions, but the few like Riven and Talon who don't need to crit or attack frequently don't want it because you'd get just slightly less AD but more utility and effectiveness out of other, better items.


Here's where the problem comes up; you can tweak the stats all day, but you're going to run into a problem. All this item provides is AD, no utility or other complimentary stats. In fact, it puts negatives on your champion. There are AD items that provide similar levels of AD and more utility or complimentary stats to make them more valuable. So what's the incentive to buy this item, even on Riven or Talon? It better provide a LOT more AD than Bloodthirster to be worth it. Oh, but wait, if it gives too much then I'll end up having an extremely powerful stat stick that only works on two champions...


Yeah, I'm not sure if I still got my point across, but I'm in a hurry anyway. The item's going to be far more of a nightmare to balance than you understand; negative stats in general are not going to happen.


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Exdeadman:
Y'know, wait, stop. I'm horrible at using words to explain things. Let me instead use numbers; I'll show specifically why the OP's suggestion is beyond busted, and then I'll try to use words after that.


I think you're confusing my arguments of "negative stats can hypothetically be balanced on an item for the champions that will use it" for "the item posted in the OP is an excellent example of utilizing negative stats to create a totally viable item", which are two relatively different things, and I've only been arguing for the former. Sorry for any confusion there. That said I don't see much use for applying negative stats in LoL, just that if cost effectiveness and numeric values are the only things preventing them from being implemented such a problem is easily fixed, and not the most stellar argument to use against their implementation, because making a rebutle to said argument is easy to accomplish.

I don't think the item posted in the OP is a good idea, all AD casters are reliant on attack speed to some extent (the passive for essentially every AD caster says "use my auto-attacks&quot, and the reason to play AD champions in the first place is because their attacks deal noteworthy damage, which is true for Lee Sin as well as Fiora, and creating a disincentive to utilize auto-attacks on AD scaling champions encourages behavior that puts a good deal of AD scaling champions' potential to waste. None of those things have anything to deal with the actual numbers on the item though.

If the only problem with the negative values for the item posted in the OP was the actual values themselves, the potential for said values to be better than intended on some champions than others, or the cost-efficiency, simply changing the numbers around would fix the problems with the item.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

11-11-2012

Quote:
67chrome:
I think you're confusing my arguments of "negative stats can hypothetically be balanced on an item for the champions that will use it" for "the item posted in the OP is an excellent example of utilizing negative stats to create a totally viable item", which are two relatively different things, and I've only been arguing for the former. Sorry for any confusion there.

I'm not confused, I know what you're saying. I was trying to use the OP's example to show how statistically impossible it is to balance an item with negative stats; if anything, I should be apologizing for not clarifying that the idea of showing those numbers was to give a point of comparison. I'm not saying that just this specific example item wouldn't work, I'm trying to impress upon you how unbelievably difficult it is to make an item that is balanced with negative stats.


Here's what I was trying to say with my previous post that I ran out of time for: to make up for the negative stats, an item needs positives that outweigh them, or else it won't be used. I'm not going to pick up an item that reduces my Crit chance by 20% if I can pick up a similar cost item that just naturally has less AD unless I'm playing a bruiser, who doesn't need Crit.

For an item like the suggested one to be viable (again, just as a point of comparison, I honestly and directly challenge you to design an item with negative stats that this cannot apply to, substituting statistics), either the AD on the item would have to be noticeably higher than average, or the item would have to cost significantly less than an item with similar AD. Otherwise, I'll just say **** it and grab Bloodthirster.


You can't just fix it by tweaking the numbers; either the bonus will be too big or the negatives may as well not be there because they won't have any effect if they're low enough.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

11-12-2012

As Exdeadman is saying. There is no satisfactory point of balance for any item suggestion that includes negative stats.
Every suggestion will either:
-Be underwhelming for the cost in all cases.
-Be overwhelming for the cost in a few select cases where the negative doesn't matter.
-Be extremely ackward: If you really need all of the stats, the item should just have lower values of the positive stats and skip the negatives.
-Come across as a pure stat stick with one of the problems from the first two. The item will soley exist for the sake of existing or soley exist to be abusive in select cases and worth less in others.

There is no balance point for such an item. It is a mess to find any point where it is not a problem, and it will never be satisfactory.
Negative stats exist in RPGs where a character can be customized from the ground up, and the items themselves are extremely strong in one or two areas. They do not do well in strategy games of any form, including MOBAs.


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EndlessHelix

Senior Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Furied:
I don't know if its been discussed before but I've been thinking about it for awhile.

I would like to see an item that gives +% Bonus Attack damage and Flat attack damage, in the same way that Rabadon's Deathcap works for AP. This feature would have to come with a -% attack speed and -% crit for the owner, to devalue it for AD carries. I would suspect the build for such an item would include a B.F. Sword and a pickaxe, and would be priced in the 3300 - 3900 gold range.

Rabadon's Deathcap = 140 AP + 30% Total AP
Suggestion for my item would be +92 Attack Damage, + 21% Total Bonus AD, -20% total attack speed, - 25% flat critical strike chance.

Since riot has shown an interest in fixing AD casters, I thought this might be the time to bring it up.

Some champions who I would use it on:
Darius
Garen
Jayce
Lee Sin
Renekton
Rengar
Riven
Shyvana
Talon
Yorick

Comments?


There already is an item like this. It's called Infinity Edge. It's Crit chance and Crit enhancement are roughly equivalent to Deathcap. It's pretty bad on AD casters- and for good reason. AD casters have much better options for sustain and are generally much tankier than AP casters who have competitive level scaling. So basically- no. It's a bad, bad idea.


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