A suggestion: Since AD casters are getting attention

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Furied

Member

11-07-2012

I don't know if its been discussed before but I've been thinking about it for awhile.

I would like to see an item that gives +% Bonus Attack damage and Flat attack damage, in the same way that Rabadon's Deathcap works for AP. This feature would have to come with a -% attack speed and -% crit for the owner, to devalue it for AD carries. I would suspect the build for such an item would include a B.F. Sword and a pickaxe, and would be priced in the 3300 - 3900 gold range.

Rabadon's Deathcap = 140 AP + 30% Total AP
Suggestion for my item would be +92 Attack Damage, + 21% Total Bonus AD, -20% total attack speed, - 25% flat critical strike chance.

Since riot has shown an interest in fixing AD casters, I thought this might be the time to bring it up.

Some champions who I would use it on:
Darius
Garen
Jayce
Lee Sin
Renekton
Rengar
Riven
Shyvana
Talon
Yorick

Comments?


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TheRottenCrow

Senior Member

11-07-2012

no. just no. this is awefuly aweful. why would you get an item like that? losing attack speed means losing damage all in all. and alot of people who focus on AD need crit for high damage. isee what your trying to say, but riot, and everyone else, will never want an item that provides a negative effect for the owner.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Negative stats are not going to exist because, due to how Riot designs the game, there will always be at least one champion who can forgo or negate the stat receiving the negative. Fiora has a +120% AS bonus; she could easily ignore the minor loss for a huge chunk of AD. Lee Sin is a bruiser; he can ignore a loss of Crit chance for more AD.

Which means it would be overpowered on the few champions who would buy it.


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Furied

Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exdeadman View Post
Negative stats are not going to exist because, due to how Riot designs the game, there will always be at least one champion who can forgo or negate the stat receiving the negative. Fiora has a +120% AS bonus; she could easily ignore the minor loss for a huge chunk of AD. Lee Sin is a bruiser; he can ignore a loss of Crit chance for more AD.

Which means it would be overpowered on the few champions who would buy it.
An item like this would be specifically designed for the champions that could negate it, in order to control which champions they have to balance to viably use it.

In regards to Fiora:
Base attack speed: 0.672
Burst of speed (rank 5) = 120% attack speed * 0.672 = 0.8064
Attack speed / level = 3%
Attack speed from levels at level 9 = (0.03 * 9) * 0.672 = 0.18144

Attack speed at level 9 (earliest potential maxed burst of speed) = 0.672 + 0.8064 + 0.18144 = 1.65984 Attacks per second.

Conclusion for fiora:
20% reduction of 1.65964 brings it to 1.3278, a loss of 0.332 attacks per second, or the equivalent of 49.4% worth of attack speed from items, during this boost. This assumes that she has no other sources of attack speed in her build, which would also be affected.

Fiora is an AD carry, by design. Her lategame damage potential is oriented around auto-attacking using increased attack damage, attack speed, and critical chance. The negatives are designed to prevent such an item from affecting the viability of such champions.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

That example was just one of a carry who has a high enough AS buff that the damage increase could be worth it.

There are too many champions for this sort of item to be balanced; either it would not be bought because it would be considered worthless, or it would be too damn good on the champions who can ignore or negate the negatives.


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furied View Post
Rabadon's Deathcap = 140 AP + 30% Total AP
Suggestion for my item would be +92 Attack Damage, + 21% Total Bonus AD, -20% total attack speed, - 25% flat critical strike chance.

Comments?
First of all, 1 AD roughly equals 2 AP in value, so a Rabadon's AD equivalent would be more like ~70 AD, not 92.

Secondly, this would make auto-attacking even less desirable, which begs the question of why. The distinct advantage AD scaling champions have over AP scaling champions is that you can finish your burst with auto-attacks when the burst doesn't do the trick. It's bad enough when AP scaling champions refuse to use auto-attacks, but as an AD champion you really have no excuse not to use them. All the negative stats on this would do is encourage idiotic behavior (as well as negatively impact AA reliant farming and jungling).


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exdeadman View Post
There are too many champions for this sort of item to be balanced; either it would not be bought because it would be considered worthless, or it would be too damn good on the champions who can ignore or negate the negatives.
...that argument could be applied to pretty much every single item in the entire game, save for the specific reference to the negatives.

Items are balanced when they don't cause the group that will be using it to really shift them out of balance, being considered "worthless" on a variety of champions is something all items suffer from. Rabadon's Deathcap, Chalice of Harmony, and Sorcerer's Shoes are completely worthless on a champion like Riven and they are still well-balanced items.

An item doesn't need to be a viable pick on every single champion to be worth implementing in the game, it only needs to be viable on a handful of champions, such as a general class or roll (ie AD scaling bruisers and assassins). And being "too damn good" is something you could argue things like Warmogs are on champions that are well-suited to it like Mundo.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Its funny how there was a lot of resistance to the term "AD caster" up until a few months ago. Seems like Riot really does adjust its thinking to the common crowd. (Not a bad thing)


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furied View Post
Suggestion for my item would be +92 Attack Damage, + 21% Total Bonus AD, -20% total attack speed, - 25% flat critical strike chance.
I personally feel that critical strike should have a flat cap on it: 40% max, same as CDR. I do approve of the crit chance reduction being a new stat on an item but it should be multiplicative. -25% crit chance would do little to a 10% change to crit (-2%) and a lot to a 40% chance to crit (-10%).


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The Blue Jelly

Senior Member

11-08-2012

You know, the other problem is simply this:

I buy this item
I buy IE
I buy PD

My cit chance is massively over what I lose there, and I lose 20% damage output for 21% more AD; if I'm a RADC with an AS steroid (Kog/Tristi/Ez for example, or anyone with Nunu support), that's actually not a huge loss.

Hell.
Build this
Build IE
Build TF

Ezreal uses Q.
He just bursted you harder than he does in an AP build. With a single attack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
First of all, 1 AD roughly equals 2 AP in value, so a Rabadon's AD equivalent would be more like ~70 AD, not 92.

Secondly, this would make auto-attacking even less desirable, which begs the question of why. The distinct advantage AD scaling champions have over AP scaling champions is that you can finish your burst with auto-attacks when the burst doesn't do the trick. It's bad enough when AP scaling champions refuse to use auto-attacks, but as an AD champion you really have no excuse not to use them. All the negative stats on this would do is encourage idiotic behavior (as well as negatively impact AA reliant farming and jungling).
Oh, and this.
Took me forever to learn to use my AAs as a mage.... mostly did because I was playing AD and On-Hit Ahri in bots for entertainment when my nets were epic unreliable.
But unless I build a Lich, that AA of mine isn't doing too much outside of giving me a little bit of DPS while on CD. On an AD Caster, your AA's actually hurt.

Which is also why you don't need CDR as much as a mage >.>


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