Preseason Itemization Preview

First Riot Post
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Zeunchainn

Senior Member

11-09-2012

I have a very bad feeling for mana manipulator.


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Mahgnificent

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Holy Wukong the Monkey King.


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Oninego

Junior Member

11-09-2012

Just one question: Will Haunting Guise get an item to upgrade to?


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Kise

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Senior Member

11-09-2012

Will Chalice build into anything for mana reliant AD champs?


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GrizlakMonger

Member

11-09-2012

I'm worried that from such a fun to watch/fun to play game right now, we're going to have to go through a year of tweaks from a freshly unbalanced game with these major changes. There is no way to get the game near its current balance with this kind of overhaul in a short time. I think the best thing Riot can work on is overhauling the server that was not designed for the amount of players you currently accommodate. Even if new champions only came out once every 2 months. There is so much internal character balancing you could focus on and server side/QoL improvements that it seems misguided to spend so much time overhauling everything else about the game. I'm afraid a game I've spent so much time learning will be turned into something very different and I will just have to walk away from the game if it loses the aspects I found appealing. Please also consult current pros to make sure the changes you are making make sense from a competitive stand point. I likely wouldn't play the game if it weren't so fun to watch. If the game gets so much into offense that defense is useless, you end up with a big burstfest with less interesting team work opportunities. Please don't lean too heavily towards burstiness. We saw with rengar and evelynn how ultimately boring it is to play against and to watch at a pro level.


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Sir Robin Ibz

Junior Member

11-09-2012

@ Xypherous:

As far as I know, you designed Renekton, Riven, Lulu and some other champs.

You are already giving a good item for Renekton and Riven, so please make some item wich fits Lulu as good as those two are fit by the new black cleaver.


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IVlaverick

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
[aws3]news/November_2012/2012_11_07_S3_Itemization_Preview/Xypherous_Top_of_Post.jpg[/aws3]

Hey guys,

Iím Xypherous, a Technical Designer here at Riot Games. Iíve been working a bit on the goals for itemization changes as we head into the preseason, focusing mostly on specialization, player self-expression, and adding new gameplay patterns in the game. We wanted to fix a lot of the existing problems that players have with items and try to add more depth in terms of itemization. Let me go over the major goals we have for the preseason item changes:

Clean up / Reworks

We have some items that need a lot of love and some items that simply donít have a place in the current framework in the game. We either made these items relevant for a specific purpose or removed them if they were too problematic to balance. Some super-niche or narrow-scope items have been remade to work on a greater variety of champions.

Specialization

There arenít enough items to allow each champion to really feel like they have their own unique build. We also want to add more items that allow you to specialize for the particular game that youíre in. Weíre adding items to give players in each role alternate primary builds that fill out their teams better. If your carry needs to do more AoE damage, he has an option for that. If your primary AP caster needs additional CC capabilities, thereís an option for that, too.

We want players to have a degree of specialization in terms of playstyle, and to buy items that complement that playstyle rather than simply giving them the highest raw stats.

Gold and Statistics Pass

Weíve done a complete gold and statistics pass on the entire item shop. Many statistics have been reevaluated to better reflect how much gold they are worth at a particular stage of the game. Premiums have been adjusted across many items to reflect how difficult they are to build or how niche they are, rather than their raw statistical strength. Items that grant early Resistances / Attack Damage / Attack Speed have all been reevaluated in terms of strength.

Breadth and Depth

One of the most important things we tried to accomplish during the preseason was to ensure that your mid game items didnít pigeonhole you into certain choices later in the game. Weíve also endeavored to give mid-tier items more late game options so that you donít run into dead-ends as the game progresses. If you build Wardenís Mail in the mid game, you shouldnít feel compelled to buy Randuinís Omen every game. We wanted to make sure that at each stage of item progression gave you upgrade choices later on.

We know that some of your favorite items might be affected by the coming update. Iíll be discussing many specific examples in depth leading up to the patch. If youíd like more information on a specific change, reply to the thread and Iíll answer your question if I can.


------

Since lots of you were interested in diving immediately into some specific details, I've decided to bump up the first item preview post. This is posted later in the thread as well, but I thought I'd edit the OP for visibility:

Today Iím going to talk about Armor Penetration and its effects on the scaling of our Attack Damage Casters class.

Letís take a look at one of the core items for this class Ė The Brutalizer:

The Brutalizer has long been the trifecta of Attack Damage, Armor Penetration and Cooldown Reduction that these characters lean on for early game dominance. However, Flat Armor Penetration as a statistic overall has been pretty overpowered in compensation for the fact that items with the stat donít typically scale at all into the late game. This turns these characters into early-game gambit characters, out to dominate the early game as quickly as possible before they become irrelevant.

To adjust for this, weíre making two major changes:

1. Flat Armor Penetration and % Armor Penetration values are generally being lowered, but now Flat Penetration is calculated AFTER % Penetration

For example: Letís say I have 50% Armor Penetration and 20 Flat Armor Penetration versus a target with 120 Armor.

Currently, on Live, I would ignore 20 of his armor via Flat Penetration (100) and then 50% of the remainder, leaving him with 50 Armor.

After this change, I would ignore 50% of his armor (60) and then 20 of the remainder, leaving him with 40 armor.

In this manner, we can make sure that penetration values can be cost-effective for both late game and early game because now you have an option to synergize the two statistics together if you need to pierce large amounts of armor.

2. Brutalizer builds into more than one thing

Letís dig down into this item a little more. First off, the Black Cleaver now triggers off all physical damage. This means that spells and abilities can trigger the passive. In fact, letís look at a couple of our AD casters and see how this item works differently on them:


[aws2=news/Champ_Splashes/Pantheon_Splash.jpg]news/Champ_Splashes/Pantheon_Splash_thumb.jpg[/aws2]

Pantheon, the Artisan of War

Spear Shot: Will trigger Black Cleaver once on a single target.
Aegis of Zeonia: Will not trigger Black Cleaver, as it does magic damage.
Heartseeker Strike: Will trigger Black Cleaver three times in a cone, as it does physical damage to the target three times.
Grand Skyfall: Will not trigger Black Cleaver, as it does magic damage.


[aws2=news/Champ_Splashes/Garen_Splash.jpg]news/Champ_Splashes/Garen_Splash_thumb.jpg[/aws2]

Garen, the Might of Demacia

Decisive Strike: Will trigger Black Cleaver once, on a single target.
Courage: Will not trigger Black Cleaver, as it does no damage.
Judgment: Will trigger Black Cleaver up to 6 times, in a circle around him, as it does physical damage 6 times.
Demacian Justice: Will not trigger Black Cleaver, as it does magical damage.

So now, AD casters attempting to deal with highly armored opponents have a way to partially nullify the armor of targets they choose to fully commit to with all of their skills. However, they make a trade-off here; while Black Cleaver is highly effective at negating the effect of enemy armor, the Cleaver itself does not provide all that much Attack Damage as a whole. So your skills will be slightly less effective on targets with high health and low armor, simply because theyíll be doing less overall damage. Black Cleaver is incredibly effective at shredding targets with lots of armor, but doesnít really do well trying to kill a mage with Rod of Ages, for example.

What about Last Whisper? How does this work with Last Whisper?

Last Whisper grants you % Armor Penetration while Black Cleaver reduces the opponentís armor.

Letís look at an enemy with 400 Armor. Black Cleaver will reduce their armor by 25%, leaving them with 300. Last Whisper will allow you to ignore 40% of the remaining 300 armor, which means their effective armor against you will now be 180.

(EDIT: Many people have pointed out that Flat Penetration happens here. This is true. Flat Penetration would now apply, leaving their effective armor at 170. Sorry guys. XD)

Last Thoughts

We hope that this change helps create a smoother scaling curve for many of our AD casters without causing them to utterly dominate and kill everyone. While these changes allow them to ignore armor much more effectively, the characters in question will be making heavy tradeoffs by simply not dealing as much raw damage as they could have with a B.F. Sword build against soft targets. Additionally, these iterations of The Brutalizer and The Black Cleaver allow our more spell-focused ranged carries like Corki or Graves to have a viable alternative to Last Whisper that will give them great utility if they find themselves on a team with lot of physical damage characters.

Thanks for reading and stay tuned for more!

-Xypherous
I've been wondering, do you have any plans to ad mana burn to the game? It's a useful concept in many MOBA's and MMO's and RPG's. I realize that with how specific the items would be (mana) that it might not work, but what about an all purpose item that burns rage/energy/mana by a small percentage per hit? If properly balanced to perhaps give some ad, cd reduc, atk spd etc etc it could be a nice item on many ganking jungle champs, giving them that slight edge they need to maybe just hit their prey enough to where it comes down to how well you account for it. Just a thought, thanks if you read it!

:-)


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GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

11-09-2012

The goals seem interesting, but if you add too many items, you really should make sure to rework the shop and other interfaces to help new players find what they need fast. Too much information to absorb is often what scares new players away from the MOBA scene. I think it's fine to have a ton of information for the game so there's depth, but you gotta increase the effective means to share that information.

Also, your change to armor penetration... I really hope to see the ADC items nerfed then (other ones) cause you have just made them even STRONGER and even harder to have any hope against come late game.


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SixxTwinWounds

Member

11-09-2012

That is an overall nerf for black cleaver which used to allow ad carries to bring enemies with armor into negatives with the flat armor reduction will now bring a target @ 0 5% lower which is still 0. If not and it can reduce a target to -25% explain how that would be better rather than bringing them into negatives via flat reduction instead.


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GodEmperorLetoII

Senior Member

11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Go go.. support-Sivir for an AD comp?
Cause a support Sivir could totally make the gold to do that >.>