3,000 petition signatures later...

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Kitsune Senpai

Junior Member

11-07-2012

So 2 almost 3 hours later I finally have a not so passable reply. I mean Nash has done what many haven't and actually listed why they liked the old map instead of just saying: "OMG new map suxxor please uninstall RIOT DON'T WANT!" But still there has yet to be a coherent response to answer what is it that made this new one bad. Was it the alters, does something need to be done about them, is it the map layout as a whole, if so what parts can you point to as big problems, was the removal of jungle buffs what has you all up in a fit. Look I loved old TT but from an objective stand point I really don't see that much of a difference, after many games with my friends (despite me loosing my main account) on the old TT this one seems much the same with some interesting differences. No, I would not call the new one better, but I feel that it may only be my, and to make a judgement call here our nostalgia towards and older iteration of this design that we cling to. When TV was invented my great grandparents told my grandparents that TV was a horrible awful devil machine that should be stayed away from. (Actually that was my parents and my grandparents but none the less) And when I was very young my parents told me video games will rot my brain and give me stds and all sorts of made up "change hating" lies. I submit that all of the people here who cannot give me a unbiased oppinion and discuss what it is that really needs to be fixed (as I said, is it the jungle? the items? the alters? or even all three?) That is exactly what RIOT asked of us in their post because that's what we should be doing, they can easily enough move a few things around, play with the top jungle again what ever you need them to do, but to go back to an older iteration of a forward moving design for nothing but subjective nostalgia and wild claims will not be answered by RIOT or any game company for that matter. Imagine if WoW listened to you guys, they would remove battlegrounds, go back to 40 man raids that dropped less gear, they would get rid of faster mounts and flying around anywhere just because nostalgia dictates that a game that is constantly being changed needs to not be changed. If you like living in the past it is extremely easy to download an emulator and go and play metroid, because that new fangled super metroid allows you to duck and shoot, instead of using bombs to kill the most common enemy in the game. What if RIOT had ever listened to people like you? We wouldn't even have Garen, actually if they just wanted to be nostalgic and not try anything new then we would still just be playing dota, if you don't like change go play dota2. They've updated the graphics but done nothing, hardly, to change the gameplay if living in the past is your thing then do it somewhere else. Do it where you don't harm a company trying to push a medium/genre forward. Go play emulator games, enjoy your FF7 and your Duck Hunt, they are fun games but stay the HELL away from games that are trying to do what you and so many others claim to want: Change. If you don't want people to change anything then stop telling us that we need to. I can make a Call of Duty clone in a couple of months with a sub-par, under payed, novice team but that won't make you happy. Cling not to the past and look towards the future. Eat the cake or keep it, not both.


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Tindomerelhloni

Junior Member

11-07-2012

I agree the new map is rubbish.. Riot is dumb not to listen to us...


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Phallicies

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune Senpai View Post
...Cling not to the past and look towards the future. Eat the cake or keep it, not both.
see the problem with that analogy is that you're assuming once consumed its gone forever. its more like buying a newer sleeker faster sports car when your old normal one works just fine. Except, you park the old one in your back yard near the dumpster and destroyed the keys to the car. So no one else can drive that car you enjoyed that works perfectly fine, but isn't *new*. You could just drive both cars whenever you felt like it, if you left it in the driveway, but no, you parked it in the back and destroyed the keys to the car.

The older car needs some new parts eventually as do all cars, but just because you buy a newer one doesn't mean you throw the old one away.


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Desocupado

Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squallian View Post
Just to point it out, theres like 32 million league players.

You think 3000 signatures means something?
3000*$50 = 150.000

That's something.


I want the map back, and I'll refuse to spend any money on this game before that.


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Turtle Omega

Senior Member

11-07-2012

I'm glad riot is taking a really strict policy against you guys and not bringing the old TT back

Haters gonna hate


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Kitsune Senpai

Junior Member

11-07-2012

Hmm. I seem to not be getting this point through well. The design process is employed by riot is known as iterative design. which means... let me look up a definition to help this along.

"Iterative design is a design methodology based on a cyclic process of prototyping, testing, analyzing, and refining a product or process. Based on the results of testing the most recent iteration of a design, changes and refinements are made. This process is intended to ultimately improve the quality and functionality of a design. In iterative design, interaction with the designed system is used as a form of research for informing and evolving a project, as successive versions, or iterations of a design are implemented."
-Wikipedia

So this is what we know that riot uses, in fact let me find that piece of evidence for you as well.

"Let’s be clear: this will be an iterative process. We know that your games are going to play out differently than you’re used to and we’ll be watching like a hawk for any issues that we need to patch"
-Morello

Alright now Morello is just talking about this coming patch in this quote but looking at league history we can see this is the message that has been repeated throughout time. Now we also know because beta testing, and I mean REAL beta testing not previews called betas (for more on that the WoW dev blog could be cited), is part and parcel of the iterative design process. So from this we can begin to see that this beta map is part being working through this design philosophy so that is what it should be measured against, not against your ideas of cars... Actually cars... good example.

The design of cars is also, typically, iterative. So lets look at two links: http://www.hubcaps.org/blog/wp-conte...oletimpala.jpg that is a 1973 Chevy Impala. A classic American car that some would argue is the one of the best most iconic cars of all time, however it's design is an iterative process so in 1985 we get this photo: http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/chevrol...ala-1985-1.jpg now this car is not alot of peoples favorites, many would say they took a great design and made it worse but they also usually can't point at why. (mostly because ascetics matter in both the case of the cars and the maps and that is something that you don't just put your finger onto easily. As the years have gone by the Chevy impala of the 70s has grown into a legend and has quite the following, but Chevy despite this has NEVER gone back and made the same car twice why? Because iterative design says so, basically.

Now before you tackle me for that statement let me explain. When making a game, a car, a house, designing anything using the iterative method you never take a step backwards (or rarely... like really rarely) and in fact taking a step back is exactly what this design process is NOT about so by doing so you break your tool you are using to make the game. You can look towards the past. You can say: "Damn that red lizard buff really made for some interesting fights, we should put a buff like that instead of the speed buff." But you cannot just go back. Ever... I hesitate to say it but from my long exposure to this industry I have never seen a company go back on a design decision in a game. They may change it. They may modify it to look or act more like the old system, but they will (almost) never go back on that choice. Every spot, every angle of the new TT map was combed over by level designers, systems designers, champion designers, and each choice was made to fit the meta and the TT they want, which as artists that is there right, but forgetting that. This is not how we should be helping them. If you want the lizard buff back, then ask for it but just saying "Don't want!" you do nothing to help them, or yourself. The great designers at Riot Games do not believe in your backwards corporate "new coke v. coke classic" logic. They aren't trying to mass produce content and shove 1 kind of soda down the throats of many Americans. They aren't trying to give you a new shiny car to drive around in but don't like as much. They are trying to make the 3v3 environment something a bit more competitive. Something that you would actually want to watch the world finals for. Riot wants eSports rise up across the world. Not make a bunch of people who like things that are older because they are more comfortable.

I really hope some people read this. Too much work for just a bunch of people who think they know how games work. It's an art form, not a mass produced product. This represents more man hours than the average movie or TV series, respect it as such.


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Phallicies

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Senior Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune Senpai View Post
Hmm. I seem to not be getting this point through well. The design process is employed by riot is known as iterative design. which means... let me look up a definition to help this along.

"Iterative design is a design methodology based on a cyclic process of prototyping, testing, analyzing, and refining a product or process. Based on the results of testing the most recent iteration of a design, changes and refinements are made. This process is intended to ultimately improve the quality and functionality of a design. In iterative design, interaction with the designed system is used as a form of research for informing and evolving a project, as successive versions, or iterations of a design are implemented."
-Wikipedia

So this is what we know that riot uses, in fact let me find that piece of evidence for you as well.

"Let’s be clear: this will be an iterative process. We know that your games are going to play out differently than you’re used to and we’ll be watching like a hawk for any issues that we need to patch"
-Morello

Alright now Morello is just talking about this coming patch in this quote but looking at league history we can see this is the message that has been repeated throughout time. Now we also know because beta testing, and I mean REAL beta testing not previews called betas (for more on that the WoW dev blog could be cited), is part and parcel of the iterative design process. So from this we can begin to see that this beta map is part being working through this design philosophy so that is what it should be measured against, not against your ideas of cars... Actually cars... good example.

The design of cars is also, typically, iterative. So lets look at two links: http://www.hubcaps.org/blog/wp-conte...oletimpala.jpg that is a 1973 Chevy Impala. A classic American car that some would argue is the one of the best most iconic cars of all time, however it's design is an iterative process so in 1985 we get this photo: http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/chevrol...ala-1985-1.jpg now this car is not alot of peoples favorites, many would say they took a great design and made it worse but they also usually can't point at why. (mostly because ascetics matter in both the case of the cars and the maps and that is something that you don't just put your finger onto easily. As the years have gone by the Chevy impala of the 70s has grown into a legend and has quite the following, but Chevy despite this has NEVER gone back and made the same car twice why? Because iterative design says so, basically.

Now before you tackle me for that statement let me explain. When making a game, a car, a house, designing anything using the iterative method you never take a step backwards (or rarely... like really rarely) and in fact taking a step back is exactly what this design process is NOT about so by doing so you break your tool you are using to make the game. You can look towards the past. You can say: "Damn that red lizard buff really made for some interesting fights, we should put a buff like that instead of the speed buff." But you cannot just go back. Ever... I hesitate to say it but from my long exposure to this industry I have never seen a company go back on a design decision in a game. They may change it. They may modify it to look or act more like the old system, but they will (almost) never go back on that choice. Every spot, every angle of the new TT map was combed over by level designers, systems designers, champion designers, and each choice was made to fit the meta and the TT they want, which as artists that is there right, but forgetting that. This is not how we should be helping them. If you want the lizard buff back, then ask for it but just saying "Don't want!" you do nothing to help them, or yourself. The great designers at Riot Games do not believe in your backwards corporate "new coke v. coke classic" logic. They aren't trying to mass produce content and shove 1 kind of soda down the throats of many Americans. They aren't trying to give you a new shiny car to drive around in but don't like as much. They are trying to make the 3v3 environment something a bit more competitive. Something that you would actually want to watch the world finals for. Riot wants eSports rise up across the world. Not make a bunch of people who like things that are older because they are more comfortable.

I really hope some people read this. Too much work for just a bunch of people who think they know how games work. It's an art form, not a mass produced product. This represents more man hours than the average movie or TV series, respect it as such.
its not taking a step back if you just leave whats already there and add more


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mannyskillz

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Member

11-07-2012

Out with the old in with the new!Love the new Map.


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Kitsune Senpai

Junior Member

11-07-2012

I don't want to argue this point further. I will now defeat you with your own name. The logical fallacy presented in my opponents case is the fallacy known as the bandwagon which is: Appealing to popularity or the fact that more people like/do something as an attempt at validation. This is not true it breaks one of logic's oh so sacred rules. The second issue here is your mis-persecption of time, I'm sorry but my skills in debate are not great enough to find the fallacy for this one. You believe, or your last statement leads me to believe that you.... believe, that this hasn't already happened. It has. You it is not 2013 but the 2013 Chevy Impala has been designed, you can't change that now, it's hit the show room floor, or should shortly. This has been made from a design perspective it exists and is the next step in design, period. To further this argument this beta is out, the public has seen it and we can no longer go back on this, we can only take pieces. Progress marches forward and we have little control of that. This is done. The decision has been made. You cannot argue or talk from a perspective of something that is over. You can't say after you bomb Japan that we should go back on the decision. The design of this map was not conducive to the idea that it was based off of. Riot argues that this map is everything they wanted in TT originally and you argue that this map hasn't happened and ignore the design document, the original idea about this fast paced gank heavy game type.


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Jancarius

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Member

11-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxypa View Post
I still dont understand why they would stick in a new map before the end of a season. Should of been added in season 3 at the start vs the ending when it can mess peoples elo up.
Season 2 is over. We're in the post-season now.