An Armor / Attack Speed Item

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Trevallion

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'd rather not. MBR is trying to do too many things at once to be good. A raw buff doesn't help when it's main difficulty is it has both too many stats and also can't be cheap because then it competes with Wriggle's. While it's probably a very good idea to have an item compete with Wriggle's lantern - it probably doesn't actually help all that much to be in the exact same line as Wriggle's.

MBR's main problem is that it effectively kills itself due to always being sub-optimal in some regard, no matter who builds it - outside of Warwick, I suppose. You could raw buff it until the sub-optimality parts go away by sheer virtue of being overpowered but I don't think you've solved anything there - you've just kind of made it outshine a bunch of other items, unfortunately because it's still not performing a new niche, just three old ones sub-optimally.
I feel like Blade of the Ruined King (aka BoRK) does the %health damage thing much more effectively than MBR. Mostly because it does lots of other things at the same time and synergizes with the idea of taking out a high health target. For example, if I'm so worried about a high health target that I am buying an item to take them out, I probably need some sustain to stay alive long enough to kill them. You pretty much buy MBR for the % health passive, but it's so expensive for what it offers that you're better off buying any number of other items instead. Why not move BoRK (or a variation of it) over to SR and redo MBR to make it compete with Wit's End and Ionic Spark? Maybe put a teeny stacking (up to X stacks) damage over time effect on it and make it build from recurve bow, cloth armor, and long sword. Another option would be recurve bow and chain vest. That would put it slightly more expensive than the other two. Plus with it building from an armor and an attack speed item, you wouldn't need to put AD on it, which would make it less desirable for carries. The bleed effect would be fitting because Bloodrazor sounds like it should make things bleed anyways. While you're at it, you could make the bleed effect scale with your stats somehow so it's not just another dead end mid tier item.

I am a big fan of the idea of a decent attack speed/armor item. For people who like attack speed and defense, it feels weird that your options are Ionic Spark for health, Wit's End for MR, and a tank item for armor because there's no offensive option for me here. I really think this is a situation where the lack of an offensive defense item sort of pigeonholes people into buying super tanky items when they need to defend against a specific type of damage.

AD is in a similar boat though. If you like AD and defense, your armor options are wriggles lantern and atma's impaler. Atma's is admittedly hard to balance, but without being able to buy an end game level defensive item that gives me AD, I'm stuck buying a randuin's, frozen heart, etc, which makes me much harder to kill than if I had purchased some sort of hexdrinker/maw tier item that gives me a bit of AD and armor. Which is not to say that I mind being hard to kill, but I'd really like to be able to get more defense without being pigeonholed into becoming a brick wall just to pick up some armor OR being a glass cannon to pick up some damage. I don't really have a good suggestion on how to fix this problem. Obviously the atma's route is too much and it's hard to think of a way to make it better without making it appealing to carries. I sat here for a while trying to think of something, but I really can't imagine how to make it a balanced item without making it something every AD would want in every game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

3mptylord

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
AS/AR is kind of a niche item primarily for bruisers who can autoattack. There isn't a whole lot of classes that would actually like such a stat.

So essentially, you'd be making an item for Lee Sin/Udyr/Shyv/Irelia - which immediately jumps at the question of 'Do they actually need this item?'

Currently, I'm at the opinion that while yes, there is a void here - it's probably an okay void to have unless we're somehow trying to make early armor viable on AD carries.

That said, in the jungle, attack speed / armor is really appealing on pretty much everyone who jungles - So if an item were to be made along these stat lines, the large bulk of the item's gold value would probably go towards being jungle-related to help autoattack bruisers transition better into the mid / late game, rather than a lane dominance item with AS/AR.
I'd actually love an Armor/AS item on Kassadin and Elise, when I play them attack-speed in Dominion (heck, I play Elise AD/AS in Summoner's Rift). Against a high-AD team, I feel like I have 0 armor options; whereas I can get Hexdrinker and Wit's End against MR. I usually buy Glacial Shroud. I heard you're disembowling Frozen Heart. I would kill for Glacial Shroud + AS debuff as a standalone... but I'd probably love Armor + AS debuff even without the mana and CDR.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cheezycookie

Senior Member

11-06-2012

I think Ionic Spark is worth it most of the time, its very cost efficient for the money and it's one of the only items that gives your team much stronger pushing power, that alone is makes it worthwhile


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ShiboTsukaite

Junior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHaveANiceDay View Post
I'd personally love it if adding another Ruby Crystal or Giant's Belt to an Ionic Spark created something like an 'Ionic Bolt' - same attack speed, +250 more health, 160 damage chain proc.

Yeah, it's tough at that point not to make the DotA Maelstrom/Mjolnir comparison, but they're a model that should be considered for copying because it's a model that solidly works; from a character standpoint, there's something self-rewarding about the idea of building Mael/Mjol on a character. When I build it on Naix or some similar hero, I get the 'fun' feeling of saying "I am building for better pushing potential." Here is the item I want, I know what it does and what it's used for, and I feel instantly positive about buying it.

It's something I was delighted to see make an appearance in LoL, that same model of 'I want to push and here is a pushing item,' and I don't think there's anything wrong with pushing the trend. (Pun not originally intended)
I feel like adding a new tier item ( the "ionic bolt") idea is VERY interesting, but creating a HP/AS/Magic damage item is too much of a threat on just about any bruisers, the item by itself may be pretty effective and strong, but think about it on a bruiser who will have stacked armor/mr/hp + some kind item that gives them damage without losing TOO much tankyness, now you are giving bruiser type champions attack speed and magic damage on top of HP.
Next thing you know they get atmas impaler to finish that off, now bruisers will have the damage not only to compete against adcs but potentially render them useless, our current meta in season 2 has proven that bruisers can be a very dominate role in either peeling for your carries, or killing the other teams carries as your primary job before you fall but the thing is a "bruiser" is not a "carry" role creating such a item needs to be more fine tuned in a sense of cooperation with other items, overall the finished product of the "Ionic Bolt" will give +500 HP +50% attack speed and 160 magic dmg every 4 hits on up to 4 targets thats just too much


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Luego

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TalLavi View Post
Xyph since you are here and we are talking about Armor, is there a way to make the Armor/MR values more visible while in game?

Yea we can see that X champ has tons of hp bars so he has a lot of HP, but what about Armor?
When I get into a team fight and I see that the enemy AP built RoA and Rylai while the bruiser has Trinity Force and Warmogs, who should I focus? I dont know who I can burst down faster right off the bat because they both have tons of HP, but how much Armor? how much MR? I really wish there was a better way to visually convey those stats.
Runes/masteries are more "mystical', but most of your armor/mr comes from items. Hit Tab.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Skwid1g

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
An item being niche is more often a bad thing that a good thing - unless the niche is readily identifiable at first glance - then the niche is okay. It's about how readily the niche communicates itself.

For example, Spirit Visage is a niche item built to cater characters with strong self-healing effects. That's probably fine as any character can look at that and go 'Well, no self-heals here, I can ignore that.'

Ionic Spark, however, is not a good niche item to have, mostly because it looks like a good item. It feels like a good item. And then 95% of the time, you're doing it wrong if you buy it.
No, you aren't. It was built pretty often at MLG Dallas because of that. It has an obvious niche: an aspd item for pushing, and it does that very well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

chevaliersombre

Junior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
An item being niche is more often a bad thing that a good thing - unless the niche is readily identifiable at first glance - then the niche is okay. It's about how readily the niche communicates itself.

For example, Spirit Visage is a niche item built to cater characters with strong self-healing effects. That's probably fine as any character can look at that and go 'Well, no self-heals here, I can ignore that.'

Ionic Spark, however, is not a good niche item to have, mostly because it looks like a good item. It feels like a good item. And then 95% of the time, you're doing it wrong if you buy it.
You don't really provide any elaboration as to why this is...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Goggris

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Ionic Spark, however, is not a good niche item to have, mostly because it looks like a good item. It feels like a good item. And then 95% of the time, you're doing it wrong if you buy it.
What you seem to be forgetting though is that Ionic Spark lets you shoot lightning bolts out of your fingers. That alone makes it worthwhile 95% of the time.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FeckingAsh

Junior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevaliersombre View Post
You don't really provide any elaboration as to why this is...
or facts or anything. its just an ambiguous statement....


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

cat and mouse

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
An item being niche is more often a bad thing that a good thing - unless the niche is readily identifiable at first glance - then the niche is okay. It's about how readily the niche communicates itself.
.
People should be punished for poor build choices.

What annoys me most tho is every one starts with boots, pots then proceed to build in a linear fashion depending on what types of champ they are and I cant blame them we need more new items.