AP AS Jax

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IS1330ca164c1e976181edd

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Try out AP/AS Jax. It is awesome.

With just CDR masteries (def tree) you get Empower to 2.8 secs. 2.8 secs ~200 AP (minimum with RCS and LB) Lichbane procs.

Immense burst on squishies.

I am not sure about the total DPS power, but I think it has way more bursting potential vs carries but might be a bit weaker in DPS so you might be weaker vs Bruisers and tanks.

Not sure which items to get else - Abyssal maybe if the enemy APC(s) are fed because of immense MR boost through item and ult.

Maybe Deathcap, but I am not sure because it is a totally glass cannon item. Malady should work well, but I am not sure where to build it in my build (maybe you can help me on this) - Before RCS, after/before Lichbane? But then it looses it effeciency because it is the stronger the earlier you get it.

Rageblade, Soulstealer and Zhonya's might be also valid options (note that you dont need the active from the last one as much as other champs do).

: Also an option: Nashor's Tooth. This with CDR def masteries allows you to proc Lichbane constantly every TWO seconds (1.95 CD on Empower!)

AS from Malady, NTooth and/or Rageblade allows you to proc your ult passive as well (which also gets boosted by AP)

HT Revolver/WOTA/Gunblade always a good option.

So I am a bit confused with items to get and in which order.

Maybe RCS -> Lichbane -> Malady -> HT Revolver?

Or Malady -> Sheen -> RCS -> HTRev -> LB?


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-05-2012

I think one of the things that's easy to forget about Jax is the way his R works.

Jax's R gives resistances based off your offensive stats. So, you get armor scaling with your AD and magic resistance scaling with your AP. So there are a few problems with building pure AP on Jax.

1) Your R doesn't give you much armor, only MR. This leaves you vulnerable to the enemy AD carries. And sure, you could just build some armor, but why build armor when we could build AD and simultaneously increase our defenses and our damage output?

2) We're not building Trinity Force. The gold efficiency on Trinity Force is amazing. It's one of the best in the game. In fact, the gold efficiency of Trinity Force is so good that it's not entirely uncommon to see champions that don't use all of the stats (like Darius) building a Trinity Force. Jax is one of the very few champions in the game that benefits so well from every single stat on the item. It's going to take more of an argument then "But Lichbane!" for someone to convince me to stop building Trinity Force on Jax.

3) Attack speed is nice, but you have to consider what value you're getting out of your attack speed. With a champion like Teemo, there's incentive to build attack speed without building AD because Teemo's E adds passive damage that scales to AP, so AP/AS Teemo is one of the rare occasions where you can get away with being effective by building AS without AD.

But more important, read Empower. Jax's W. ACTIVE: For 10 seconds, Jax's next basic attack or Leap Strike deals additional damage. Empower resets the autoattack timer.

It does a certain amount of damage based on rank, then adds more damage scaling with AP.

What's hidden in this ability is the fact that it also scales to AD. See, "next basic attack" "deals additional damage," so the numbers you look at for Empower are added to what is already Jax's auto-attack damage.


Now, don't get me wrong, AP is great for Jax. It's the only thing his W and his R's passive scale too, and with CDR and Attack Speed, this can mean a lot of damage.

But remember, even with the R, that's damage added to the auto-attack damage.



Nashor's Tooth is unquestionable a great item for Jax. It's extraordinarily gold efficient much like Trinity Force, and again, Jax is one of the few champions that utilizes every stat on it. But when we start talking about items like Rabadon's Deathcap, we're build pure AP items that are too expensive, not as gold efficient as hybrid items, and it actually weighs Jax's damage far more heavily toward AP (making it easier for opponents to simply build MR, where as normal Jax is hard to itemize against defensively).

Yes, with Lich Bane and tons of AP, your W hits a lot harder. REALLY hard. But your auto-attacks are very weak, your E (which can actually put out quite a bit of AoE damage) is very weak, your Q is not as strong, and you're not getting hardly any armor out of your ultimate.

And let's not forget, our auto-attacks do basically no damage (except for every 3rd, when we get our ult proc). But the ult proc doesn't actually damage structures.


When I play Jax, I rush Sheen or Phage. After the first third of Trinity Force, I get a Vampiric Scepter. Next I finish Trinity Force, build Malady, then work on Rageblade/Hextech Revolver. And the one defensive item I normally fit in is a Guardian's Angel.

When it comes down to it, Lichbane requires a lot of AP to be effective, and Trinity Force is just way better than Lichbane, particularly for Jax. Remember, with Lichbane, we're getting AP, movement speed, and the sheen proc. With Triforce, we get all that, plus attack speed, crit chance, some health, and the phage proc.


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IS1330ca164c1e976181edd

Senior Member

11-05-2012

I personally got the feeling that no matter how I build Jax (never tried pure AD yet) his R doesnt give him THAT MUCH more bonus armor/mr depending on offensive stats. You get also more HP from Rylay's than you get from TF. And if you are having probs with the ADC you can also get Zhonya's.

Q scales with AP as well.

I don't get what you meant by W and R are adding to the Attack Damage. Yes, they PROC on AA hits. But they DO scale with AP (and ult with AS as well). Both skills DO NOT scale with AD AT ALL. Not a little bit. They do scale with AP/AS, not a single bit with AD. Not a single bit.

About countering; Well, you are still dealing wtih LB hits (acting a bit like a void staff), your Q and continous AAs. In my last game as AP/AS Jax I even dealt more phys than mag dmg (Though, it does unfortunally counts in the damage on creeps).

AS: Your ultimate does scale with AS, you can read it like it is doing a third of it's total damage per hit.

Quote:
Yes, with Lich Bane and tons of AP, your W hits a lot harder. REALLY hard. But your auto-attacks are very weak, your E (which can actually put out quite a bit of AoE damage) is very weak, your Q is not as strong, and you're not getting hardly any armor out of your ultimate.
Q scales also with AP. You got continues AA buff dmg with your ult. And W gets to a short CD of 2 seconds + LB proc. And really. Which Jax uses Counter Strike for damage? Really, which AD items you are getting usually on Jax? TF and HT GB, right? Those doesn't even incerase the damge of your E that much, imho.

Phage proc -> That's why I go Rylay's. With Empower it also provides a constant slow effect and wasn't even nerfed in the last patch!

As I wrote, AP Jax might have more troubles vs Bruisers and Tanks. But he should excel way better in taking out ADC and squishy supps/APCs.

TBH it really feels like that for AP AS Jax there are so many item choices to take.

The reason why I am thinking about Deathcap is because you already got about 200 AP already and Deathcap and LB also snowball with each other. Maybe it is a good item if you are already owning.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basnap View Post
I personally got the feeling that no matter how I build Jax (never tried pure AD yet) his R doesnt give him THAT MUCH more bonus armor/mr depending on offensive stats. You get also more HP from Rylay's than you get from TF. And if you are having probs with the ADC you can also get Zhonya's.
I'm comparing the health on Trinity Force with that of Lichbane. Building both of these items is a colossal waste of gold as the Sheen proc will not stack between the two (and that's the part that makes either so good).

If Trinity Force isn't enough health, you can build other items with health. And if the Phage slow isn't enough, you can build other items that provide slows, whether that's Rylai's Crystal Scepter, Frozen Mallet, Randuin's Omen, or whatever. These all WILL stack with Phage.

You can't argue that the health on Trinity Force is less than the health on Rylai's and therefore that makes your build better, because that's an irrelevant comparison. The fundamental difference in the build is whether you want to go Trinity Force Jax or Lichbane Jax. We're building around the Sheen proc.

So most of the point of my post is that while Lichbane works out good on AP champs, Trinity Force is simply better item, especially if your champ makes use of all of the stats. Jax is a champion that makes use of all of the stats.

I mean, the fundamental difference in the build is Lichbane versus Trinity Force. The fact that your AP Lichbane build has Rylai's and Rylai's has more health than Trinity Force doesn't make Lichbane a better item than Trinity Force.

What does Lichbane have? Well, for 3470 gold, we get:
350 mana, 80 ap, 30 mr, 7% ms, and the sheen proc now scales with AP.

Compare this to Trinity Force. For 4070 gold (600g more), we get:
250 mana, 30 ap, 30 ad, 250 health, 30 as, 15% crit chance, 12% ms, the phage proc and the sheen proc.

If we were talking about Mordekaiser, then sure, Lich Bane is the better option, because AD, AS, and Crit chance are pretty weak, and Morde only scales to AP so you've got good interest to make your sheen scale to AP. But we're talking about Jax.

You're still getting 30 AP, and you still have the sheen proc even if it is a little weaker. You're adding the phage proc, you're adding 30 ad, 30 as, and 15% crit chance, and you're getting 12% ms instead of 7% ms.

For a melee champion, the extra 5% ms and the phage proc actually translate into a lot of actual damage.

Also, for what it's worth, by level 7, Jax's base attack damage is greater than 80, so at level 7 up, the Trinity Force proc will hit harder than the Lich Bane proc until Jax has built more AP.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basnap View Post
I don't get what you meant by W and R are adding to the Attack Damage. Yes, they PROC on AA hits. But they DO scale with AP (and ult with AS as well). Both skills DO NOT scale with AD AT ALL. Not a little bit. They do scale with AP/AS, not a single bit with AD. Not a single bit.
Here's what I mean...

Not all champions scale with AP. Riven is an example of a champion where AP does literally nothing for her.

HOWEVER, EVERY champion scales with AD. Attack damage increases the damage your champions auto-attacks do.

So, once again, I'll ask you to read the text on Jax's W.

Quote:
ACTIVE: For 10 seconds, Jax's next basic attack or Leap Strike deals additional damage. Empower resets the autoattack timer.
Now, at Rank 5 of the ability, Empower will add 180 magic damage plus 60% of Jax's AP to the next auto-attack. Do you not see how this scales to AD? It adds the damage to Jax's next AUTO-ATTACK.

If Jax's normal auto-attack hits for 500 damage (he has 500 AD), and Jax has 100 AP, then Jax's empower would deal 500 + 180 + (100 * 0.60), which comes out to 740 damage.

Jax's W scales to AD because whatever number your W tells you it does, that number is added to Jax's auto-attack damage.

This is the same with Jax's R. Read the text.

Quote:
PASSIVE: Jax deals additional damage on every third basic attack.
The text does not say "After 2 auto-attacks, Jax will instead do this much magic damage." No. It says on his third auto-attack, this much damage will be added to his attack.

So you take his auto-attack damage (which scales with AD, 1 to 1) and add the damage his R adds on the third hit. At rank three, it's 220 + 70% of AP.


So yes, these two abilities scale to AP, but because their auto-attack modifiers, they also scale to AD.

And while Jax's Q does scale to both AD and AP, it scales better to AD. It scales 100% to AD, but only 60% to AP.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-05-2012

So let's talk about the real problem with building pure AP Jax, what you're over looking: Auto-attack damage.

Jax's Q scales to both, but scales better to AD than AP.
Jax's W scales to both, even if it may be harder to see how it scales to AD.
Jax's E scales only to AD.
Jax's R scales to both (both the active and passive, even if the passive is harder to see as before).

Jax's passive grants him attack speed.


So here's the deal. With a short cooldown on W, yes, you can really nuke someone down if you have Lich Bane and a ton of AP. But by building AP, you're only able to access your stats by activating abilities. You want to build AP/AS so that you can fly through auto-attacks and get your R proc more often.

I can only ask, why would you want 2 useless hits (since you're not building AD) and one hit that hurt a LOT when you could have 3 hits that all hurt a lot?



And here's one final note about the R active and the resistances it provides. It gives 30% of your AD as armor and 20% of your AP as magic resistance. Now, this may not seem like much, but what it really means is that Jax can build one fewer defensive item than a typical player would be able to build. Typically, the only defensive item you really need to build on Jax is a Guardian's Angel.


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IS1330ca164c1e976181edd

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
If Trinity Force isn't enough health, you can build other items with health. And if the Phage slow isn't enough, you can build other items that provide slows, whether that's Rylai's Crystal Scepter, Frozen Mallet, Randuin's Omen, or whatever. These all WILL stack with Phage.
No, they do not stack. AFAIK only ONE ITEM (!) slow is applied, which is the strongest.

If you compare TF with LB it is also worth mentioning that LB costs 600g less.

Quote:
Also, for what it's worth, by level 7, Jax's base attack damage is greater than 80, so at level 7 up, the Trinity Force proc will hit harder than the Lich Bane proc until Jax has built more AP.
Who the hell builds Lichbane as first item?

Quote:
Now, at Rank 5 of the ability, Empower will add 180 magic damage plus 60% of Jax's AP to the next auto-attack. Do you not see how this scales to AD? It adds the damage to Jax's next AUTO-ATTACK.
It still deals the additional damage as magic damage. I still can't follow your line TBH. Of course I am seeing that he needs to AA in order to get the effect done. But there are others champs who need to do the same (TF, Akali). I am not seeing what you are going to tell me with this.

If you assume about 200 AP + then Rabadon's (for the calc's sake we take it) = 460 AP. You are dealing about 1.5k mag dmg with one Q, one W and one proc of R (not calced the LB procs). Jax will dodge the ADC's AA for 3 secs. He can get off at least one another W (+LB proc) for about 500 damage and mostlikely at least one proc of the ult for another about 500 damage. That's about 2.5 dmg + LB procs.

LB should be once after Q (if we count that for whatever reason this Jax uses Q and W together), once after Counter Strike and once again after the second W. This should translate to about 1.5k physical damage. Which squishy can survive this? 3k ****ing damage (without calcing armor/mr of course). They will be dead 3x times once the dodge ends.

Quote:
If Jax's normal auto-attack hits for 500 damage (he has 500 AD), and Jax has 100 AP, then Jax's empower would deal 500 + 180 + (100 * 0.60), which comes out to 740 damage.
No, no, no. You will NEVER reach 500 AD unless you start stacking up BTs.
It is easier to obtain 500 A than 300 AD. And most AD items come with offense only, no def or utility.

As I said before: The DPS will be lower. But how are you going to protect your ADC from lots of burst damage from someone who can jump right onto them? My point is, to make it short, that burst damage is more powerful to anihilate enemy squishies than constant damage is.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basnap View Post
No, no, no. You will NEVER reach 500 AD unless you start stacking up BTs.
It is easier to obtain 500 A than 300 AD. And most AD items come with offense only, no def or utility.
The point wasn't to throw out some accurate numbers. The point was to explain to you how Jax scales to AD, which you still don't seem to get.

Oh well. Build AP Jax. It's not disfunctional, just inferior to hybrid Jax.


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futuresight23

Senior Member

11-05-2012

I'm assuming for AP Jax to work, you need Rylai's for the health to survive in melee and the slow to stick to targets and the Lichbane for the burst from the proc. Any other items like Malady and/or Nashor's tooth are effectively supporting items to that core build.

The reason why Hybrid Jax is superior is that Trinity Force gives the slowing potential and health that Rylai's does and the burst that Lichbane gives through the sheen proc in 1 item that is cheaper than the 2 AP Jax needs. The money you save from just getting a Triforce can go to the rest of the build like a Guardian Angel to allow you to play more aggressively or a Guinsoo's Rageblade for the sustained dps or a Hextech Gunblade for the extra sustain etc...


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

11-05-2012

By the way, I build Nashor's Tooth in my Hybrid Jax build.