Champion AMAs returning

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kitae

Lead Designer

11-05-2012
7 of 13 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
But... I like facts. Not as substitute of a story, but facts were nice. The judgments allowed both a story and a fact. Also, you said Facts a lot.
That's a fact.

The bottom line is my focus is on getting out great stories to players, not on getting facts out. Facts are great (did I mention I like saying facts?) but they tend to result in a demand for more facts. It becomes a factpocalypse (I just invented a word). Your post shows this - you asked a bunch of great questions. I could respond to each point with an... answer .... but it would generally just spiral out into more questions.

Now I'm not saying we should never answer questions, of course we should, but my focus is more on building redicuawesome (I invented another word) stories. The Shadow Isles was step 1 in that direction. If you liked the specter VO in the TT map, or the Elise login lore, that is the start of where we are trying to take lore development.

I also do want to release more prose, maybe even novels one day.

Patience please, I know it's hard, but that's what we're working towards.


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ploki122

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
We used to give one liners explaining why champions joined the league. These one liners didn't really give any new information on the champion, and they weren't stories, they were one liners.

No more one liners.

Champion bios are stories, so we're going to focus on telling a great story.

I understand that players appreciate facts, and old-format bios did contain more facts, we are exploring other ways of getting facts to players outside of the bio.
Well... removing the one-liners is one thing... removing the league altogether is another. I totally understand your point and agree with it, but let me rephrase his question in a more constructive way. Why would he join the league? (Wouldn't that stop his expansion and thus limit his reign, or does him entering the league has anything to do with his master's "memento"?is he simply still chasing after shen's shadow (see what I did there?). Honestly, I could see many reasons why he would join the league, but none of them really linked to his character... and none of them strong enough that he would actually join the league instead of teaching his forbidden art, Also, I don't quite like how he had to tap into an evil source of power to master his art, but then he can simply teach it around... I feel like the school is lacking that evil part... or was it simply omitted from the bio?)


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KeŠnu

Junior Member

11-05-2012

When is Zed coming out? When is the next patch? I bought RP and I'm ready to buy him now


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Renekton Bot

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Senior Member

11-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
To whom it may concern.

Renekton Bot and Shyvana are, like, officially dating. Ahri thinks he's kind of gross. Scales...ewww....
That's the old lore.


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LastProtagonist

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Senior Member

11-05-2012

Gingerbread Singed where?


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Gixia

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
Champion bios are stories, so we're going to focus on telling a great story.

I understand that players appreciate facts, and old-format bios did contain more facts, we are exploring other ways of getting facts to players outside of the bio.
See, this really feels like it should be the reverse. Bios should be the facts, and everything else should be the story. A biography is generally what you go to when you want to get the facts and details about a person's life. When you want a story, you go and read... well, a story.

You need the basics before you can expand outwards into more detailed and interesting pieces of fiction. You need a starting point, a reference point. The new bios don't give us this. Most of them don't give any information at all that can actually be used to give context to what's going on. Who they are, their overall role in the overarching story of runeterra, their purpose in-game, these are the details that are most important, because these are the things we experience first-hand. In a champion's bio, you should be telling me why I care about this champion. Why I should support him, choose to summon him, and why he would want to be summoned (especially as you're moving away from champions who are imprisoned and used against their will, it becomes more vital to establish why they would agree to participate). If I am playing as a summoner, summoning a champion to fight for me on the fields of justice (and I am), then the bios should work to help sell this champion to me. They should tell me why I want this champion fighting on my behalf over any of the many others. This is especially bad with the champion reworks, though most of the new champions are suffering from this as well.

This is hard to explain, made even worse by the fact that I'm struggling not to fall asleep, but still, I'll try anyways. Let's take a pair of recent champions as examples.

Why should I care that Kha'Zix and Rengar want to kill one another? The illusory nature of Summoner's Rift, the fact that defeated champions are revived, impossible to permanently kill on the fields of justice, it means their conflict will never be resolved there, and thus, why should I care about it? Furthermore, why would either of them care about being summoned to fight for someone else's behalf, when they're both depicted as being sigularly focused on each other, and so fighting each other in a location where they can't resolve their conflict would just be waste of both of their time? Worse yet, why would they care about fighting anyone else if their desired opponent is not present, or even on the same team as them? Their story, as told, leaves no room for them to actually be in LoL. Maybe if there was a book about them to read, that'd make for an interesting read. Maybe if there was comic, or a film, animated program, hell, even a different game to play, one not bound by the rules and laws of the League, where their conflict could be read about, or watched or experienced as it unfolded first-hand, with the possibility of actual resolution hanging in the air to give some sense of tension, to drive interest.

But there isn't. There is only LoL, and in LoL, their conflict is not only irrelevant, it's detrimental, because instead of making the world feel larger and more cohesive, it just feels detached and inconsequential. I've raised this issue before and never received a proper response, but honestly, it feels like you do not actually want to be making stories for LoL. It's as though you're happy to be making stories for Runeterra as a whole, but are actively pushing away from the actual League upon which the game takes its name. And again, if there was more than just the game, this might be understandable, but there isn't. We need lore that actually complements the game. Pushing the two further apart only makes both worse.

You say you're going to focus on telling a great story. That's great. I think you should actually do that. But you can't do that in a champion's bio. A great story does not fit into the space you have allotted to it. Never in my life have I read a story less than 300 words long, that fit into less than half a page, that I would deem to be 'great'. You mention prose, you mention novels, seriously, awesome, go for it. I would buy LoL novels. Resource allotment. Focus less on trying to cram a big story into a tiny bio, and work on actually getting those stories into longer form to be read somehow. Putting it in the bio doesn't make for an especially compelling read for the player, and it doesn't do justice to the actual story itself.


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BloodGod22

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
That's a fact.

The bottom line is my focus is on getting out great stories to players, not on getting facts out. Facts are great (did I mention I like saying facts?) but they tend to result in a demand for more facts. It becomes a factpocalypse (I just invented a word). Your post shows this - you asked a bunch of great questions. I could respond to each point with an... answer .... but it would generally just spiral out into more questions.

Now I'm not saying we should never answer questions, of course we should, but my focus is more on building redicuawesome (I invented another word) stories. The Shadow Isles was step 1 in that direction. If you liked the specter VO in the TT map, or the Elise login lore, that is the start of where we are trying to take lore development.

I also do want to release more prose, maybe even novels one day.

Patience please, I know it's hard, but that's what we're working towards.
Kit, what about older champions that didn't get any AMA or new lore or even a judgement. I really want to know more about Nautilus and what the dark waters are, why he was changed instead of killed or something.
Will we ever get some more info on him?


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
We used to give one liners explaining why champions joined the league. These one liners didn't really give any new information on the champion, and they weren't stories, they were one liners.

No more one liners.

Champion bios are stories, so we're going to focus on telling a great story.

I understand that players appreciate facts, and old-format bios did contain more facts, we are exploring other ways of getting facts to players outside of the bio.
Why not add a "Champion Lore Trivia" section for info best contained in one-liners, like why they chose to join the League?

And on a sin(x)/cos(x)...have you ever heard of Bionicle? It was a fairly strong lore-based Techno line from Lego that was around from 2001 to 2010--and yes, its lore was ABSURDLY deep, with an entire cosmology established over the 10 years it ran, subplots, events covering a span of several hundred thousand years [granted, for bionic beings able to live for millenia]. It seems like there are some fun comparisons and lessons to make between LoL and Bionicle, especially since Greg Farshtey (the guy who worked on most of the plot) was quite...active...on the forum equivalent (BZPower, the largest Bionicle fansite) to the Lore forum.

(I realize the above tangent was off-topic, so if this is deemed worthy of discussion in an email or in-LoL-client conversation I'd love to have it, but I'm fine with you guys giving a generic one-post quip for now. :P)


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kitae

Lead Designer

11-06-2012
8 of 13 Riot Posts

You raise some excellent points forgive me for snipping out a few key ones, I'm going to address them all in one comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
In a champion's bio, you should be telling me why I care about this champion. Why I should support him, choose to summon him, and why he would want to be summoned (especially as you're moving away from champions who are imprisoned and used against their will, it becomes more vital to establish why they would agree to participate).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
Why should I care that Kha'Zix and Rengar want to kill one another? The illusory nature of Summoner's Rift, the fact that defeated champions are revived, impossible to permanently kill on the fields of justice, it means their conflict will never be resolved there, and thus, why should I care about it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
But there isn't. There is only LoL, and in LoL, their conflict is not only irrelevant, it's detrimental, because instead of making the world feel larger and more cohesive, it just feels detached and inconsequential. I've raised this issue before and never received a proper response, but honestly, it feels like you do not actually want to be making stories for LoL. It's as though you're happy to be making stories for Runeterra as a whole, but are actively pushing away from the actual League upon which the game takes its name.
So the short answer is, we are very interested in telling stories that do not reflect the gameplay of League of Legends. You ask why is the conflict between Rengar and Kha'zix relevant when they can't die in the fields of justice? The answer is, because they can die outside of the fields of justice, and if we tell more stories about their conflict they will undoubtedly occur outside of Summoner's Rift.

I'm not saying we won't tell stories involving summoners rift, twisted treeline, etc. but we are absolutely interested in telling stories outside of the gameplay experience we already know and love. We think the biggest opportunity for stories lies there.

For example - what is the real history between Garen and Katarina? That's a story I'd love to tell, and it has nothing to do with Summoners or the Fields of Justice.

A big part of what we are trying to do with creative is create characters who have interesting stories to tell outside of the League.


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Muranodo

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
You raise some excellent points forgive me for snipping out a few key ones, I'm going to address them all in one comment.







So the short answer is, we are very interested in telling stories that do not reflect the gameplay of League of Legends. You ask why is the conflict between Rengar and Kha'zix relevant when they can't die in the fields of justice? The answer is, because they can die outside of the fields of justice, and if we tell more stories about their conflict they will undoubtedly occur outside of Summoner's Rift.

I'm not saying we won't tell stories involving summoners rift, twisted treeline, etc. but we are absolutely interested in telling stories outside of the gameplay experience we already know and love. We think the biggest opportunity for stories lies there.

For example - what is the real history between Garen and Katarina? That's a story I'd love to tell, and it has nothing to do with Summoners or the Fields of Justice.

A big part of what we are trying to do with creative is create characters who have interesting stories to tell outside of the League.
While I enjoy the actual stories of them as characters being more fleshed out...

I find myself missing the Champion-to-Summoner connection which you hit in the first point. In-game, I particularly miss the small lines from champions that would appear in which the summoner was acknowledged. As I test out new champion after new champion, I miss the connection as it feels weaker to absent.

I liked the summoner, city-state, and champion connection. It's one reason, in part, why the Journal of Justice worked so well for me because it hit all of those; it also hit on expanding their personal stories. Now, rather, I feel like there's a larger rift.
I can sympathize and root for the characters; the connection isn't as great.

Swain's judgment (amongst others) greatly spurred my association and care for the character. It was one of the symbiotic moments that actually made me interested in lore
and in turn heavily invested in the game.

To provide a reaction by me now, I'll mention another Noxus champion. Darius. Some champions feel like they would lend themselves better from a lore angle to foster that connection especially amongst the major in-game factions. Darius was a great angle for this as the "Hand of Noxus." If a Noxus summoner wants to open their mind to someone so heavily vested in their philosophy/beliefs in regards to League---what a great possibility. However, instead, my interest in Darius was entirely reliant on his story development and his character association. And it's further more heavily reliant on the AMA follow-up. I can feel for him and ponder on his motives; I can't see the secret undercurrent like with Swain.

The emotional effect is a bit lessened; the feel of growth and immersion. I don't feel let in on the secrets under the belly of the world; I'm rather, instead, sitting and watching them from afar.


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