[Featured Discussion] Flat health heal on hit item. why not?

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Kagami

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. This probably isn't a good time to mention that I removed FoN and scattered its various passives and pieces to the wind onto other items.

On the plus side though, Tanks now get to build Warmog's and not feel silly.

Although you'll still be able to build every piece of FoN used to offer. It just won't be rolled up into the particular stat combination. This counts against my spoiler count for the day. :P
Please tell we're getting a different item for negatron cloak to build into then, since now it will we will only have 3 items it builds into vs 7 for Chainvest.


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Iohet

Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

Also, the tri-fecta of Warmogs / Spirit Visage / FoN was actually incredibly hard to get a good sense of balance. Mostly because it turns "on" super-late but mostly because they build on each other a little too much. While we like the build of 'I am unstoppable brick wall of regeneration' - we think that right now it's both really hard to get *and* overpowered when finished and we'd really like to see it be a more viable build that's more in line when it does happen so people feel like they aren't taking long-gambits but more of a choice on how to itemize.
Well, it's not going to change that you're still going to build Warmogs and Spirit Visage on champions like Volibear, Warwick, etc because they sync so well with their kits(at least when you roll them as tanks, which is probably the most common iteration). FoN was just an added bonus to very low range champions like those. You get the speed, you get the HP regen, and you get the solid MR that is hard to properly itemize for those kinds of champs.

Singed was another champ that would be hurt by this, since this item also was perfect for his kit(again, low range, speed dependent, and needing MR considering he has no MR/lvl scaling).

Yea, maybe the item was overpowered for certain classes, so why not just take the next step and limit it to certain champions/classes, because it really hurts the viability of a class that's already hurting.


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PhailRaptor

Adjudicator

11-06-2012

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
For example, Lich Bane is the AP item with movement speed on it. That kind of screws every AP caster who doesn't want Lich Bane or can't use it well. This leads to this weird case where randomly, some class of characters get faster just because they can use Lich Bane well. While it's nice to have a few items like this - it's probably a sign as a whole that people want to be able to somehow spend more gold to get mobility rather than they want catered items that have MS on the item.
So does this mean that Lich Bane is going to be made shiny and new, along with FoN getting the ax?


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Augasm

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Recruiter

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. This probably isn't a good time to mention that I removed FoN and scattered its various passives and pieces to the wind onto other items.

On the plus side though, Tanks now get to build Warmog's and not feel silly.

Although you'll still be able to build every piece of FoN used to offer. It just won't be rolled up into the particular stat combination. This counts against my spoiler count for the day. :P
Is the insane health regen and movement speed still in the same item? And possibly significantly cheaper as well?


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MrHarz

Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. This probably isn't a good time to mention that I removed FoN and scattered its various passives and pieces to the wind onto other items.
You know, between this and the incoming jungle rework making jungle camps stronger, I think Hecarim might just be crying right now.

Oh well, I'll wait and see what you did with the MR.


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notrangerjoe

Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. This probably isn't a good time to mention that I removed FoN and scattered its various passives and pieces to the wind onto other items.

On the plus side though, Tanks now get to build Warmog's and not feel silly.

Although you'll still be able to build every piece of FoN used to offer. It just won't be rolled up into the particular stat combination. This counts against my spoiler count for the day. :P
I'm surprised you're removing just FoN and not Warmogs. Warmogs is the most cost effective defensive item for any type of damage in the game. All this will do is change the most effective anti-AP build from Warmogs+FoN to Warmogs+Warmogs. Unless you plan on bringing Blade of the Ruined King or Blackfire Torch to SR, don't be surprised when Warmogs stacking comes back and Warmogs/Warmogs/Thornmail tanks bring the wrath of low elo down on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

3. Movement Speed

The whole paradigm of X class gets a MS item Y is actually starting to show where the faults are. In order to specialize for movement speed, you have to build into a very specific item - which naturally creates this weird power gap where a class that is perfectly catered by item Y gets MS while every other class pays a gold tax of unwanted stats to get the same mobility. This naturally leads to people wanting more MS/X items for a specific class - which seems to suggest that maybe what people actually want is more ubiquitous movement options that don't consume slots rather than a continuous stream of one-off items with MS% randomly on it.
Please oh please tell me you're taking away the guaranteed 410+ move speed that all ranged AD carries get. I will love you forever.


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warmturtle229

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
This solution works but tends makes the effect less cool in a lot of ways. It flattens the interactions it can have which also tends to flatten why the stat was compelling in the first place.

There's some forms of balance that just completely make what was compelling bland and uninteresting. They work at solving the problem but the sacrifice is a bit much in some cases.
Isn't this why Fiora isn't any good top lane at the moment? The hp regen on Hit isn't really noticable in trades because she has no disengage.


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Mylon

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. This probably isn't a good time to mention that I removed FoN and scattered its various passives and pieces to the wind onto other items.

On the plus side though, Tanks now get to build Warmog's and not feel silly.

Although you'll still be able to build every piece of FoN used to offer. It just won't be rolled up into the particular stat combination. This counts against my spoiler count for the day. :P
I really liked FoN for the passives. If I could get that all by itself and then buy a negatron cloak, I'd be happy leaving the regrowth pendants behind.


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Overlord NA

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Senior Member

11-06-2012

noobs


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Knightengale

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Junior Member

11-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Quite honestly, I have no idea. There's a lot of moving parts here on changes.

Force of Nature served three purposes, one of which we couldn't make good.

1. High end MR item on one item.

We're not sure that a single rushed item should counter mages so heavily. So buying FoN for raw magic resistance was always going to be somewhat of a trap because we could never make it *good* to have this much MR on a single item without it simply being cost-inefficient so it could be slot-efficient.

There are ways to make an item cost-inefficient for selfish MR while still making it cost-efficient as a whole for MR though...

2. Regeneration/Siege

This we liked, but the fact that it was tied to a movement speed item and a magic resist item was a little weird. It didn't quite seem to click, so tanks that had to itemize regeneration kind of picked up a bunch of stats randomly.

Also, the tri-fecta of Warmogs / Spirit Visage / FoN was actually incredibly hard to get a good sense of balance. Mostly because it turns "on" super-late but mostly because they build on each other a little too much. While we like the build of 'I am unstoppable brick wall of regeneration' - we think that right now it's both really hard to get *and* overpowered when finished and we'd really like to see it be a more viable build that's more in line when it does happen so people feel like they aren't taking long-gambits but more of a choice on how to itemize.

3. Movement Speed

The whole paradigm of X class gets a MS item Y is actually starting to show where the faults are. In order to specialize for movement speed, you have to build into a very specific item - which naturally creates this weird power gap where a class that is perfectly catered by item Y gets MS while every other class pays a gold tax of unwanted stats to get the same mobility. This naturally leads to people wanting more MS/X items for a specific class - which seems to suggest that maybe what people actually want is more ubiquitous movement options that don't consume slots rather than a continuous stream of one-off items with MS% randomly on it.

For example, Lich Bane is the AP item with movement speed on it. That kind of screws every AP caster who doesn't want Lich Bane or can't use it well. This leads to this weird case where randomly, some class of characters get faster just because they can use Lich Bane well. While it's nice to have a few items like this - it's probably a sign as a whole that people want to be able to somehow spend more gold to get mobility rather than they want catered items that have MS on the item.
Reading your posts brings me a sense of safety. Like I know season 3 is in good hands.

That being said Xyph, I know your current work is really important and all... But on some level I want you making cool champions again! Is that where you're headed after S3 item reworking is done?