Why You Lost (Extended Addition!)

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Rezo

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Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethadind View Post
Supports carry the carry in the early game. It's not the carry that is in charge of the laning, it's the two supports duking it out for zone control and harass. The ADC is CSing with the occasional poke, the support is zoning with constant poke so that the ADC can keep CSing. Try playing a Voli/Ashe game against *any* team comp in low Elo. As long as the two of you are reasonably intelligent you'll win the lane - I recognize Voli falls off in usefulness the higher your Elo gets, but in low Elo he dominates bottom lane. Try next playing Soraka/Ashe, see how much worse you do. Same ADC, different support.

Once again, I get what everyone is saying. I understand the desire to fight back at what I'm saying. What I'm telling you is that a lot of what you believe is accidental indoctrination. You've been told what a support can and cannot do, mixed with the current "jungle and mid are the most influential roles" propaganda, and the logical conclusion is that support is worthless. It's not, and I would venture to say that a great support is the most important thing you can have in low-elo, because it's in the lowest supply and highest demand.
Ashe is more reliant on supports. The more aggressive the support the more in control you are of the engages but it does not mean you are going to carry a bad ADC any where.

Bot lane is my lane its the lane I play 99% of the time. This is not something i've been told, this is something I know from experience. Lets look at it from a different perspective. thats easily demonstrated Instead of low elo lets say lower level....If I get on a lower level account and queue 2 normal matches one as a support and one was say a range ADC which game do you think im going to make more of a difference in? Which game do you think is going to end with a victory quicker?

Do I think xpecial could lose in a 1300 game as support? yes.

Edit: To clarify again, I am not stating support is anything close to worthless. I am simply saying that if you are truly way more skilled than the other people in the game then you would carry the game significantly harder with a different role other than support.


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TorinHidden

Junior Member

11-11-2012

This is the single most useful guide I've read on this website. Thanks for posting a collection of solid and pertinent info and that actually makes sense and works!


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Hirumonogatari

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezo View Post
Ashe is more reliant on supports. The more aggressive the support the more in control you are of the engages but it does not mean you are going to carry a bad ADC any where.

Bot lane is my lane its the lane I play 99% of the time. This is not something i've been told, this is something I know from experience. Lets look at it from a different perspective. thats easily demonstrated Instead of low elo lets say lower level....If I get on a lower level account and queue 2 normal matches one as a support and one was say a range ADC which game do you think im going to make more of a difference in? Which game do you think is going to end with a victory quicker?

Do I think xpecial could lose in a 1300 game as support? yes.

Edit: To clarify again, I am not stating support is anything close to worthless. I am simply saying that if you are truly way more skilled than the other people in the game then you would carry the game significantly harder with a different role other than support.
i think the general consensus is this:

if you are better than your current ELO, you will carry regardless of what role you play. you can carry as top, mid, jungle, ADC or support. however, it is far more difficult to carry from the support role.


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Lethadind

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSZHUNG View Post
i think the general consensus is this:

if you are better than your current ELO, you will carry regardless of what role you play. you can carry as top, mid, jungle, ADC or support. however, it is far more difficult to carry from the support role.
This is the consensus of what both of us are saying.

I'm saying you can carry from any role. Period.

He's saying support should not be chosen, because even though/if you can carry as a support, you make more of a difference in other roles.

I understand 100% what you're saying, I just 100% disagree with it, as outlined in my guide, arguments I've provided, and experience that I've seen.

Do I think that support has the most influential role in the game? No. What I'm saying is that the skill difference in supports is vastly different and therefore the easiest role to stomp in. When you stomp a lane you win the lane, and then some.

The biggest point I'm trying to make is that all this hate on supports is destroying your chances of winning. Stop fighting it! The more you hate supports the more trolls you're going to see, and the more bottom lane will be based off of "luck" rather than "skill." Once the community accepts and glorifies the role of support, the game will be a lot more fun, and the Elo system will work much better.

Hate on supports, I believe, is one of the biggest, if not the single biggest wrench in the whole "Elo Hell" mindset. One person on each team is going to hate his life because he'll be "stuck" as support. It shouldn't be viewed as such, and I'm providing reasoning why. It's statistically sound reasoning too. Doesn't make it fact, but it does make it a viable theory that should be considered and tested.

-~-~-

Let me say one last thing and be done with it.

With this community that I am a part of, they do "in-house" games all the time - essentially anyone from the community can join a 5v5 custom SR game. I usually end up as ADC for these games - keep in mind I'm at an Elo of 900 right now - and often will end up with someone in the 1800-2200 Elo range as my support (the "mentors" usually take a non-carry role). I've laned against carries as high as 1400. Now you'd think that the 500 discrepancy in Elo would be apparent in the laning phase but my 2200 support did so well at zoning the carry and the other support that I completely trash the 1400 carry every time. Every time the discrepancy in the Elo of the supports has been in my favor I've won my lane. I've played probably 8-10 in-houses as ADC.

Take that or leave it as evidence of what I'm talking about. When your ADC is somewhat competent (which isn't that rare in low-elo, it really isn't), and the support is balls awesome, the lane will be won, I promise. The reverse is true too, however I've been on the receiving end of a crappy support vs. an awesome support and it's hella hard to do anything, even when I know that I'm much better than the carry I'm laning against.


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Lethadind

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Hey and I didn't mean to blow passed everyone else's comments. Thanks for all the input guys! +1's and comments are always appreciated.

And Rezo, thanks for the healthy discussion as well. I hope I can bring you around to my way of thinking about supports, but even if not I appreciate the input, it's good for people to come here and see ideas bounce around so they can make up their own mind. Anything else you have to offer is, as always, appreciated.


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Hirumonogatari

Senior Member

11-11-2012

Lethadind, i have something more to add onto what you said.

you are right to say that the support role is hated in the community. and the reason is very clear why, from my limited experience. (playing normals, which i assume equal low elo.)

the majority of the players are kill-hungry. the only stat they look at, is KDA. not even that. the only stat they look at is K/D. Assists are out of the window, joining CS statistics.

this is pretty obvious from the way top and bot plays. most good and close games, there are very few deaths, and very high cs. however, every single time i'm bot, both my opponents and my allies are so intensely focused on trying to kill the enemy laners that they forget completely about CS and zoning. ever been 1/3 but have 60 more cs than your opponent? been there, done that.

the basic mechanics of cs, map awareness and the like are important. but to the average player, they are not. it's all about KILL KILL KILL. and that's why we're stuck in low elo.

also, another reason people don't like to play support is because although support sets up the kills for their team, they are rarely supposed to "take it". i have been 0/5/28 as a support. you'd think that the team would be grateful for that. unfortunately, that happens in utopia. in LoL, you get flamed by your team and asked to be reported because you are "0/5". don't tell me this doesn't happen.

finally, you have the influence of bot games. most poor players come straight out from bot games. what do you do in bot games? few people ever passively farm and work on mechanics in bot games because those mechanics do not really work. why look at the map when the bots stay in their lanes 95% of the time? why ward when the bots don't EVER go for dragon or baron? plus they are so easy to kill, i go legendary every 5 minutes. it feels good to have my name right up there on the screen!

so i add it all together. you have bot games which minimizes the role of support because it is generally not needed. you have the bulk of the population focused entirely on K/D and little else. finally, because of this, most people rage hard at their supports for every thng they do wrong. as a new player to LoL, what do you think my feelings towards the support role will be?

as an addendum (and this builds into my previous point, which has gone unanswered) you can say that it's not your business what other people play like, it's up to you to play your best. that might work, if you're a professional player. unfortunately for the rest of us, team dynamics remain very important to a team game. can you imagine a soccer team that consistently berates their goalkeeper for each and every goal they let in, and not say a word of thanks for the fantastic saves they make? do you think that goalkeeper will be playing his best? add in the report option and the environment gets even worse. who would want to support when there's all these downsides and no upsides?

these are just my two cents on why the support role is so hated. if you have some opinions, i'd love to hear them.


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Rezo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethadind View Post
He's saying support should not be chosen, because even though/if you can carry as a support, you make more of a difference in other roles.

With this community that I am a part of, they do "in-house" games all the time - essentially anyone from the community can join a 5v5 custom SR game. I usually end up as ADC for these games - keep in mind I'm at an Elo of 900 right now - and often will end up with someone in the 1800-2200 Elo range as my support (the "mentors" usually take a non-carry role). I've laned against carries as high as 1400. Now you'd think that the 500 discrepancy in Elo would be apparent in the laning phase but my 2200 support did so well at zoning the carry and the other support that I completely trash the 1400 carry every time. Every time the discrepancy in the Elo of the supports has been in my favor I've won my lane. I've played probably 8-10 in-houses as ADC.

Take that or leave it as evidence of what I'm talking about. When your ADC is somewhat competent (which isn't that rare in low-elo, it really isn't), and the support is balls awesome, the lane will be won, I promise. The reverse is true too, however I've been on the receiving end of a crappy support vs. an awesome support and it's hella hard to do anything, even when I know that I'm much better than the carry I'm laning against.
Keep in mind I am saying if you are significantly more skilled than the players in the game that I would not recommend support.

As for your example I would have to know what the bot comp was for the teams to really comment on that. Understand that Elo is not a demonstration of skill in a particular role. It is not uncommon for a high elo player that doesnt play ADC to play ADC and suck at it. See leaguereplays.com for plenty of examples in particular the ezreal and corki ones.


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Lethadind

Senior Member

11-12-2012

@ Rezo: I main Ezreal for ADC. So I was Ezreal each time. Often times the other ADC would be Graves, and I'd still come out on top. This is pre-nerf to Ezreal's W but Graves still countered Ezreal before the nerf. Also, I'm not horribly skilled at ADC either, I still get trashed from time to time in my games simply because I was outplayed, and this is at 900 Elo. 8 to 10 games I would say takes out the random "Might be high Elo but not good at ADC" thing. Meh. It's not important, I was just using it as a personal example.

I think we are both saying the same thing, we're just emphasizing different points. If someone can play every role at 100% (obviously not realistic, but as a point of reference), then obviously they should choose the role with the most influence on the game.

You're saying that with a vast skill difference then they should choose a more influential role. I agree. However we are basically where we are supposed to be within +- 150 Elo, I would say, so there won't be a vast skill difference unless you're trolling the low Elos.

What I'm saying is that the area of most improvement in low Elo is probably support, ergo if you really, really, really work on your supporting skills, you likely have a high chance of succeeding in increasing your Elo than in any other role, due to the laws of supply and demand.

@CSZHUNG: I agree dude. I don't think it's that cut-and-dry, but more of an evolving process of one person hating support for one reason, another person hating it for another reason, and a third hating it for a third reason, and all three collaberating together and deciding that it's a worthless role. It grew and grew and now the newbies who came into the game a year ago and just learned draft heard from people with more experience that support is a worthless role, so they carried that information on to the newbies right below them, who carried it to the newbies below them, etc. I'm trying to break this cycle. Because it's not a worthless role, and actually has a lot of influence on the game.

The percentages I provided earlier for "influence" on the game I believe are pretty close to accurate. Obviously there's no real way to "test" this without getting super nerdy and WAAAAY deeper into game statistics than my manly ego will allow. However, Mid/Jungle might have the most @ 22ish%, but support (the "least influential" role) is only 5% less @ 17ish%. It has a lot more influence than people think - the reason people largely fail at the role is because they have no idea what they're doing, which only feeds the "worthless" hypothesis. I would say the reason support has no influence on the game is 10% lack-of-influence and 90% lack-of-skill at the role.

There. I think that's as concise as I can get.


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Exclamations

Recruiter

11-12-2012

I play support in ranked, and I think supports are good for carrying. Supports dominate the early game. Aggressive poke/engage leads to kills bottom against the enemy support or ADC, well positioned CC leads to favorable fights, and well placed wards = more map objectives as the enemy wastes their time trying to gank.

I'm currently 1615 before reset (whatever that means). At one point in my ranked career, I played near the 800 elo range. After I changed my playstyle and mentality, I reached 1300 in a month. These tips in this guide cover even more than the ones I had back in season 1. With the right mind set and improving skill, your elo will rise.

As a support player, I am biased towards supports. However, supporting taught me how to last hit(if the AD carry is gone and the minions are there, pick up a bit of gold for the extra ward. Don't think it's easy though, last hitting with 55 damage is a lot harder than last hitting as an ADC with damage or an AP mid with skills). I learned many different gank areas and blind spots through warding(which is also useful for playing jungle). I've learned how to manage CC and use it more efficiently (Janna monsoon throws OP). Last but not least, supporting taught me that score isn't important. Supports don't enjoy good KDR's very often, but they provide as much as they can with their assists.

Exclamations


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Lethadind

Senior Member

11-15-2012

Bump.

Got a few plans to add a few things to the guide. They won't be incredibly long, but they are super important things that I have overlooked that should be mentioned.

Not sure when I'll get around to adding them, but check back occasionally.