Death timers rise too suddenly, go too high

First Riot Post
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atz9999

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Senior Member

11-04-2012

I, too, felt that timers were to short in early game. However, now that I have played a few more games I no longer feel that way about level one. The reason I changed my mind is because of how powerful first blood and the level one team fights are for impacting the rest of the game.

Currently it is a difficult (and fun) risk-reward choice to decide if its worth it to try to take an enemy alter at level one because you know the enemy resurrects so rapidly. In addition if you are on the team that lost a level one team fight knowing that you did not also just lose both altars for sure is good for morale or your team (it is not fun to be so disheartened at level one). If the resurrection timer at level one was longer it would be even easier to secure both altars in addition to winning the team fight and most of the time first blood. This would make it much harder to come back in a losing game even if you are more skilled then the opponents all because of resurrection timers that are at their core are not fun (necessary but not fun).

On a side note I have seen a few people execute themselves on towers when no enemy champions are around at levels 2 and 3 without any discernable reason. The only reason I am able to piece together is because its "safer" to be dead then recalling and you can buy the entire time your dead. This is not a common thing and I'm not sure that's the real reason they did it but in case it gets out of hand it might be something to consider. Whatever the reason for them executing themselves, in my opinion, it should be a rare case (if ever) that it is "beneficial" to kill yourself.


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gi3bnvd

Senior Member

11-30-2012

bump
death timers are so insanely high that this game isn't fun anymore.
it becomes a game of "first person to die loses".
It's been 3 weeks. Why isn't this changed yet?


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whitewolven

Member

11-30-2012

I call bull**** on RiotNome Last game on this new TT as teemo level 18 19kills-10deaths I was at 50 seconds and at 21 kills it was 56 seconds


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George W Nome

Game Designer

11-30-2012
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitewolven View Post
I call bull**** on RiotNome Last game on this new TT as teemo level 18 19kills-10deaths I was at 50 seconds and at 21 kills it was 56 seconds
Seeing as how the highest death timer you can have is 64.5, I don't see where the bull**** is :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by gi3bnvd View Post
bump
death timers are so insanely high that this game isn't fun anymore.
it becomes a game of "first person to die loses".
It's been 3 weeks. Why isn't this changed yet?
1.72 timers follow. It hasn't changed yet... because we haven't patched!

[TimeDeadPerLevel]
Level01 = 16
Level02 = 17
Level03 = 18
Level04 = 19
Level05 = 20
Level06 = 21
Level07 = 22
Level08 = 23
Level09 = 25
Level10 = 27
Level11 = 29
Level12 = 31
Level13 = 32
Level14 = 33
Level15 = 34
Level16 = 35
Level17 = 36
Level18 = 37

[DeathTimeScaling]
StartTime = 1020
IncrementTime = 60
PercentIncrease = 0.04
PercentCap = 1.5


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whitewolven

Member

11-30-2012

Ok I see what you were getting at there, though I think on this new TT the Death timer for level 18 should be at a constant and not increase at all, as some one else said it truly does come down to a "who ever's carry dies first loses" situation all too easy.

perhaps keeping it at a constant 30seconds might in a small way change this if you have competent team mate who can hold off an advancing push for that allotted time.


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Unborn

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Senior Member

11-30-2012

Question: What is the thought process behind making the start of death timer scaling 1020s into the game (if I am reading that right)? I play mostly 3's and have noticed a number of times that getting early kills very seldom leads to being able to take a tower unless the lane is already pushed almost to the turret. This feels like it decreases what your team can do when you pick 1 or 2 people off, if you have a lane really pushed you can go for a tower, if not (which is the usual), all you can do is steal their alter and/or jungle creeps which doesn't feel like nearly as much when the alter can be capped back so soon, combined with the fast jungle respawn (I know you leave one of the small creeps up). but once you hit that later point in the game, one or two people get picked off and all of a sudden you can take two turrets (which are usually still standing in both lanes) and sometimes an inhib.
Anyway, just wondering what the thought process was behind starting the scaling death timer at 1020s?


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Beoridas

Senior Member

11-30-2012

i think the exemple of one of the person here saying that , a early leading team getting aced at 3-4 lvl difference f*** the team in question.

here is my two cents on that: its not because ur winning that u can act follish. u had an early lead cause u ganked, won team fights etc....but i often find that strong leading teams tends to practice crazy things once they get too comfortable. they start to feed, lose team fights, split minion feed, jungle...when they should only go after the objective. from a mathematical stand point, you shouldnt get aced, less so with all three of em alive. from a skill standpoint, you wouldnt be at the spot u were if there wasnt a bit a skill involved no? they essentially started to do what u guys stoped doing, like lane ganks and objective captures etc..

bottom line is, the game throwing syndrom happened to you. rewarding the underdog team for doing something that is very unlikely to happen, and punishing the team that was foolishly under estimating the enemy...something that in many karate movies, they tell u not to do. specially if they have late scaled champs. u guys thought u won before killing dat nexus, they kept playing to win.


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LastProtagonist

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Senior Member

11-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Seeing as how the highest death timer you can have is 64.5, I don't see where the bull**** is :P


1.72 timers follow. It hasn't changed yet... because we haven't patched!

[TimeDeadPerLevel]
Level01 = 16
Level02 = 17
Level03 = 18
Level04 = 19
Level05 = 20
Level06 = 21
Level07 = 22
Level08 = 23
Level09 = 25
Level10 = 27
Level11 = 29
Level12 = 31
Level13 = 32
Level14 = 33
Level15 = 34
Level16 = 35
Level17 = 36
Level18 = 37

[DeathTimeScaling]
StartTime = 1020
IncrementTime = 60
PercentIncrease = 0.04
PercentCap = 1.5
I think the problem doesn't lie with the Death Timer scaling, but it has to do with more of how champions scale throughout the game in Twisted Treeline!

In a typical TT game, if you get an early game kill, say before level 9, you have roughly enough time to get a few last hits in and group your team up to capture an enemy altar. Let's say ~6-10 seconds to get to the altar, another 8 to capture uncontested, leaving you with enough time to get in a few creeps, recall, and buy. OR if you get an ace, you'll have enough time to push your creeps to a turret and you could break it...but this isn't guaranteed. You might not even be strong enough to do enough damage to a turret to kill it and recall to safety in the time the enemy respawns. While you get a gold bonus for killing a tower, you miss out on getting a damage increase to help you snowball and the possibility to force a later teamfight (where you have the advantage) while the enemy tries to recapture their altar which can help you snowball even further ahead in the game since not having an altar cripples the enemy.

Before level 14, there's less incentive to go for a tower over an altar simply because champions aren't at the point where they can push down a tower quickly enough to deal significant damage to the enemy base...why? It's because in a typical team fight where you win, you may have one or two champions left alive at low health, while the enemy might also have a champion that lived. It's simply too risky to push down a tower that an enemy can defend when an altar is an easy target that's hard to defend, yet gives you an advantage over the enemy.

At levels 15-18, you'll probably have enough items at this point in the game for a lone carry to take out two towers in the time that it takes for a team to respawn. But wait, the death timers haven't increased that drastically since level 14. What gives? It's all about the scaling. At this point in the game, altars mean less since you're not looking to gain a slight edge over your opponents to try to snowball a win. You're looking to end games. You don't need to snowball any more. You already have. Thus you can make sustained tower dives to kill opponents or break turrets.



tl;dr altars are more important than towers pre-14 so people prioritize them over towers. Once they do begin to prioritize towers, they're at the point where they can take them out aggressively, even if only one person is alive. It isn't necessarily that the death timers are too high, it's that champions "outscale the death timer."


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Vonriel

Senior Member

12-01-2012

Nome, from your posts in this thread, I see that death timers are specific amounts based on champion level that are modified based on time spent in game - up to a preset maximum. Why are these the only variables? Have you considered having your team's death timers reduced by, say, towers lost? Or tiers of towers lost, if you'd rather not make people make the choice between taking a tower to gain gold and map position versus allowing their opponents to respawn faster.

I'm also not suggesting this for SR, just TT, since being down a man on TT is just shy of being infinitely worse than being down a man on SR.


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Lucifer of Light

Member

12-03-2012

I personally feel like getting an ace early game means nothing while getting an ace late game means you win the game. Death times need yo meet somewhere in the middle. If my 3s team gets ace'd right off the bat the other team usually has to go b and when they get back my team is up. But late game they have time to go b get both alters take 2 towers and an inhib.... I'm not saying that's unfair I just wanna see times even out so it scales instead of just skyrocketing.