Death timers rise too suddenly, go too high

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Wards win games

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
You're correct and incorrect here.

The death timers DO scale faster--but they don't scale higher. Raw data follows:





Is there room for improvement? Certainly. Let's talk!

I've reviewed the numbers; I agree with the OP, One minute I'm rushing back into a fight before it's over; the next minute I'm losing half of my base. But looking at only the numbers I couldn't really see anything throwing it off. Then I realized, jungle and lane creeps.

I believe lane creeps have too much health/spawn to rapidly. Consistently through-out the game it's just a push back and fourth of giant minions waves. Essentially once you hit late-mid game (14-17m or so marker) the rate which you gain experience dramatically increases; and you can essentially gain 2-3 levels at this point in a very short amount of time.
Quote:
Example:
die at level 8.
Come back.
Farm, obtain level 12 very quickly.
Die again.
Death 1 is only going to be 23 seconds on the new map (27 on the old).
But death 2... man thats a doosey. 31 seconds. an 8 second change.
As opposed to the old TT: the same 31 second respawn; but it doesn't FEEL nearly as intense as the previous spawn, because there is only a 4 second change.
IMO this is caused by 1 of 2 things.
Either A) To many lane creeps and EXP is available in that short amount of time due to the natural push the minions have in lane. The massive waves of 20+ minions in each lane at level 8 just pushed the 8-12 gap to quickly; skyrocketing the respawn timer in terms of "game feel". This could be due to the high focus around this point in the game on jungle skirmishes. Typically lanes are just left with minions fending for themselves; eventually piling up to a ridiculous level. Once every hits 6-7 currently its a massive blood bath of who can control the jungle (If this is the case, the new alter changes could cause this issue to fix it self. Less squirmishes= less creep build up in lane.)

Or B) the 2sec increase between levels after level 5 could be reverted back to 1 seconds. I understand the reasoning for the early game reduction, and think it was a great addition. The potential from an early game ace turning into an entirely snowballed match is much lower with this system; but I feel the hard 2 second increases in between each level were abit over kill. Maybe try starting level 1 with the 12 second gap, and do 1 additional second per level like before? this would give back the fluid respawn feel the old map had, without maintaining the early advantage snowball potential. If option B was used I would tone back the scaling start time to 750-800ish, and up the % increase to .5 or .6, depending on how the numbers play out.

I think B would be the safer route to test out than the prior personally.

Or there's always C. Buff Turrets defensive values (Which I personally think the map needs anyways. I shouldn't be melee'ing down a turret in 15 hits as eve at level 9 with Mpen boots and Abyssal scepter.)

Sorry this was so sloppy; I will edit it in my spare time so it is easier to read.


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George W Nome

Game Designer

11-02-2012
2 of 5 Riot Posts

It's in seconds, sorry.

So the idea of the new TT timers is to decrease the impact of early kills, but still make end-game kills "worth it". The deathtimescaling bits are when time-based scaling kicks in on top of the level-based scaling. If you guys are curious, here are XP/level values as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TT
[EXP]
Level2 = 224.0
Level3 = 536.0
Level4 = 936.0
Level5 = 1424.0
Level6 = 2000.0
Level7 = 2664.0
Level8 = 3416.0
Level9 = 4256.0
Level10 = 5184.0
Level11 = 6200.0
Level12 = 7304.0
Level13 = 8496.0
Level14 = 9776.0
Level15 = 11144.0
Level16 = 12600.0
Level17 = 14144.0
Level18 = 15776.0


[ExpGrantedOnDeath]
;This section contains the variables in the Exp-granted-on-death formula:
; xpMultiplier = BaseExpMultiple + LevelDifferenceExpMultiple * (victimLevel-receiverLevel)
; with a minimum xpMultiplier of MinimumExpMultiple
; The actual experience granted is (xpMultiplier * [total amount of EXP needed for victim to go from their current level to their next level])
;Defaults if these keys aren't present at all are BaseExpMultiple=0.55 , LevelDifferenceExpMultiple=0.08 , MinimumExpMultiple=0.15
;These values are only read once, you have to re-launch the game to change them
BaseExpMultiple=0.55
LevelDifferenceExpMultiple=0.08
MinimumExpMultiple=0.15
Quote:
Originally Posted by New TT
[EXP]
Level2 = 300
Level3 = 700
Level4 = 1300
Level5 = 1875
Level6 = 2525
Level7 = 3250
Level8 = 4050
Level9 = 4925
Level10 = 5875
Level11 = 6900
Level12 = 8015
Level13 = 9220
Level14 = 10525
Level15 = 12055
Level16 = 13935
Level17 = 16290
Level18 = 19245


[ExpGrantedOnDeath]
;This section contains the variables in the Exp-granted-on-death formula:
; xpMultiplier = BaseExpMultiple + LevelDifferenceExpMultiple * (victimLevel-receiverLevel)
; with a minimum xpMultiplier of MinimumExpMultiple
; The actual experience granted is (xpMultiplier * [total amount of EXP needed for victim to go from their current level to their next level])
;Defaults if these keys aren't present at all are BaseExpMultiple=0.55 , LevelDifferenceExpMultiple=0.08 , MinimumExpMultiple=0.15
;These values are only read once, you have to re-launch the game to change them
BaseExpMultiple=0.55
LevelDifferenceExpMultiple=0.12
MinimumExpMultiple=0.15
The key takeaways here are that the XP growth for New TT becomes much steeper towards the later ends (it's a power curve), whereas the growth for Old TT is less so. This means that level advantages are much harder to earn, and it also means that leveling is slower than in Old TT compared to gold growth (this theoretically should be beneficial towards ADC and pure AP). You'll also note that the experience gained for players behind in levels is higher for New TT.


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Wards win games

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
It's in seconds, sorry.

So the idea of the new TT timers is to decrease the impact of early kills, but still make end-game kills "worth it". The deathtimescaling bits are when time-based scaling kicks in on top of the level-based scaling. If you guys are curious, here are XP/level values as well.





The key takeaways here are that the XP growth for New TT becomes much steeper towards the later ends (it's a power curve), whereas the growth for Old TT is less so. This means that level advantages are much harder to earn, and it also means that leveling is slower than in Old TT compared to gold growth (this theoretically should be beneficial towards ADC and pure AP). You'll also note that the experience gained for players behind in levels is higher for New TT.
Could I bother you for one more tidbit? What about EXP from creeps scaling through the game? It almost seems like the combination of the exp earned from getting an early lead is screwing people allowing not only comebacks, but complete turn arounds. tl;dr gaining a strong early lead then losing a single team fight costs your team their entire base due to your level advantage, which would lead me to believe defensive values on objectives into mid game is a tad to low atm. That the game WOULD be more balanced; if another teamfight was reached, but objectives are dying to quickly for us to fend them off/respawn. That the only reason respawns FEEL so long at that point; is because of how quickly they burn down their objective.


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George W Nome

Game Designer

11-02-2012
3 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by XenGaming View Post
Could I bother you for one more tidbit? What about EXP from creeps scaling through the game? It almost seems like the combination of the exp earned from getting an early lead is screwing people allowing not only comebacks, but complete turn arounds. tl;dr gaining a strong early lead then losing a single team fight costs your team their entire base due to your level advantage, which would lead me to believe defensive values on objectives into mid game is a tad to low atm. That the game WOULD be more balanced; if another teamfight was reached, but objectives are dying to quickly for us to fend them off/respawn. That the only reason respawns FEEL so long at that point; is because of how quickly they burn down their objective.
Minion experience is actually the same as on Summoner's Rift (to my knowledge). Monster experience however is not. I can experiment with increasing Inhibitor health... that's actually something I've wanted to try for a while.


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Wards win games

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
Minion experience is actually the same as on Summoner's Rift (to my knowledge). Monster experience however is not. I can experiment with increasing Inhibitor health... that's actually something I've wanted to try for a while.
Awesome! I look forward to posting back once I've tried it out if it's something that goes live. I'm no wiz like you guys >.< just throwing any helpful idea I can out there that seems like it would make sense. I can definitely say an ace on TT mid-game is 100% more frightening than an ace on SR/Dom/Old, mainly because at any point i know if they go all 3 in one lane an objective is 100% gone; regardless of how much damage it's taken. Hopefully this will lead to less "Oh I aced you, oh you aced me right back, oh **** you won the game immediately after.... why couldn't we do that?" moments.


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Taarki

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
You're correct and incorrect here.

The death timers DO scale faster--but they don't scale higher. Raw data follows:





Is there room for improvement? Certainly. Let's talk!
How come my death timer was 54 seconds at level 18 when you say its only 43ish?


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Wards win games

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taarki View Post
How come my death timer was 54 seconds at level 18 when you say its only 43ish?
Hey Taark, I'm not a designer or anything just a player, but see the little bit at the bottom?

Quote:
[DeathTimeScaling]
StartTime = 1020
IncrementTime = 60
PercentIncrease = 0.04
PercentCap = 1.5
This is basically saying that beginning at the 1020 seconds into every match (17 minutes)
an additional effect comes into play in addition to the flat "per level" death timers.

In this scenario, every 60 seconds after the 17 minute mark, the total amount of time it takes you to respawn will increase by 0.04%. It will continue to increase the respawn time by 0.04% per minute, for 37 minutes (Until the .04 reaches a cumulative total of 1.5% increased respawn time)

In other words; you had a VERY LONG GAME!


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Amariithynar

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taarki View Post
How come my death timer was 54 seconds at level 18 when you say its only 43ish?
Time scaling.


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Death Timers need to be adjusted. I thought the timers for Old TT were good enough, and really gave the map a good flow. I'd revert them to see if players like them better


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George W Nome

Game Designer

11-02-2012
4 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinDelMarr View Post
Death Timers need to be adjusted. I thought the timers for Old TT were good enough, and really gave the map a good flow. I'd revert them to see if players like them better
Players thought they were too long in internal testing.