Thornmail needs to be looked at

First Riot Post
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IS11d6327cb35cafc124891

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
You're correct that both Frozen Heart and Randuin's have a much bigger impact. However, I have a serious issue with Thornmail on the design side, as it scales more with how strong your opponent is than how strong you are.

so it's getting reworked or removed on sr too ?

i'm also happy that reds are not that nooblord than forum user. I created a thread about thornmail last year, and was insta closed by close minded people.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...d.php?t=996059
basically i say it should return flat dmg (with some armor scaling maybe) instead of % dmg. But this is a problem that emerged since 2009, it's a really really old issue, it look unbelievable it is not fixed yet


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ShawNuff

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Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostradamusss View Post
so it's getting reworked or removed on sr too ?
I would hope removed, because philosophically, it doesn't make sense that this item should even be in the game other than the fact that there is a version in dota (theres a couple items in LoL that are/were almost copies of dota items: Battle Fury-> Tiamat, Dagon->DFG, Butterfly->Phantom Dancer).

Funwise, I can't imagine that the fun you and your team have from building the item is greater than the antifun the enemy team experiences from dying because of good play on their part (strong farming, and laning, and previous teamfights).

Balancewise, its never really built in Summoner's Rift, so its hard to say that it is imba (until you prove it by climbing to Diamond with a thornmail build).


Lastly, @dominion people: Thornmail is built a lot in high elo... open your eyes. Obviously FH is built more because it is the most OP item in all of LoL right now, especially with the lack of a bluebuff on the map, but that doesn't mean that thornmail isn't a problematic item.


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George W Nome

Game Designer

11-02-2012
6 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yefo View Post
In my eyes, thornmail is not the problem. The problem is that the optimal team comp for this map almost always involves at least 2 AD bruisers, and in pubs, lots of teams run 3 AD bruisers.

How do you counter teams with all AD? Frozen, Randuins, and Thornmail.

If the map was not so favored toward tanky dps, thornmail would not be a popular item anymore (see: Summoner's Rift).
Season 3 will adjust Frozen Heart and Randuin's appropriately (those changes will be on TT when SR gets them).

I don't know what S3 will do to Thornmail; I've been removed from the S3 development both physically and mentally lately


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Rbo

Member

11-02-2012

While a red is reading this, I'd like to bring up the interaction between Twitch and Thornmail.
Other AD carries can deal with a thornmail simply by not attacking the tank. Twitch cannot do the same, because of his ult. The other day, I was in the low 20s in kills and singlehandedly carrying my team. Enemy mundo with 4k+ HP bought a thornmail and killed me in a 1v1 when he was feeding. I looked at damage recap. 700+ from thornmail. By that point I already had a GA and thus had decent Magic Resist. Every teamfight, I would die from receiving around 1000 damage from Thornmail, simply because I needed to ult to help my team win teamfights, and as a result, I couldn't avoid hitting Mundo.

I literally sold my GA for a FoN after I finished my build. Thormail still hurt. A lot.

Also I did have a fully stacked BT, so the "lifesteal beats thornmail" argument is basically invalid.

What I'm trying to say is that there shouldn't be one item that can counter a champion with over 20 kills and is super fed. A graves or corki with 30 kills wouldn't have the same problem because they can just not hit the thornmailed enemy.


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LegitxJoe Daddy

Senior Member

11-02-2012

Thornmail is very simple to counter and if you notice that one has thornmail plan with your team to use their abilities and range to do the damage not so much basic attacks.


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Pika Fox

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Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
You're correct that both Frozen Heart and Randuin's have a much bigger impact. However, I have a serious issue with Thornmail on the design side, as it scales more with how strong your opponent is than how strong you are.
You can technically say the same about FH and Randuins; The more AS you have, the more AS you lose, making getting more AS feel counter-productive, even if its the best choice. At least with thornmail you can grab a LW and minor MR/LS, which youre probably going to get anyway. Against FH/Randuins...theres nothing you can really get to mitigate it, since getting more AS only really makes them stronger.


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ZenithZephyr

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Senior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pika Fox View Post
You can technically say the same about FH and Randuins; The more AS you have, the more AS you lose, making getting more AS feel counter-productive, even if its the best choice. At least with thornmail you can grab a LW and minor MR/LS, which youre probably going to get anyway. Against FH/Randuins...theres nothing you can really get to mitigate it, since getting more AS only really makes them stronger.
100% this. FH needs to be changed too. Then again, it is going to be changed, so there. It has ridic stats. In addition to it's crazy good AOE passive. FH increases your damage AND utility by 33% if you have no other CDR (on any tank or mage, and almost as much for AD casters). Assume you had 15% cdr already, it increases your damage and utility by 41%. This is because percents work differently when going downwards. To illustrate this, imagine having a 100% CDR INCREASE. You would use skills half as often, resulting in a 50% reduction in damage and utility. Now compare that to a 100% DECREASE, and you can see how much more ridiculous percents going downwards are than going upwards. This also shows why the passive is so OP.


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GeorgeMoFoBush

Junior Member

11-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
You're correct that both Frozen Heart and Randuin's have a much bigger impact. However, I have a serious issue with Thornmail on the design side, as it scales more with how strong your opponent is than how strong you are.
My friend and I would have to disagree.

First of all, Thornmail represents a much needed rubber-band mechanic. When a game gets to the point that one team simply cannot win, the situation becomes anti-fun. The more rubber-band mechanics, such as an unexpected Baron Nashor kill, inhibitor respawns, and passive gold gain, the more hope a losing team has of possibly pulling out a clutch win. And it's those clutch wins that can make a game feel really good.

Furthermore, you speak of the Thornmail scaling more with opponent's strength, but is the strength of any champion in any game not the product of level, champion kit, and the items he/she has built? Thornmail is a very part the scaling of how strong you are.

So, if I might humbly submit a suggestion, perhaps lower the power of the item instead of remove it all together, or make a specific TT item that would be a "mini" Thornmail. Perhaps a chain mail vest building into a "Briarvest" or "Briarmail," giving 75 armor (or so) and return 20% (or so), the numbers needing to obviously be tested and tweak.