Thornmail needs to be looked at

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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-01-2012

The 'gold sink' to counter thornmail is difficult to quantify. You can not simply say, "Well ONLY because he has Thornmail, I had to buy lifesteal, MR, AND armor penetration!!!"

That's false. You buy those things anyway, regardless of an enemy thornmail, because you're an AD carry on 3s with half of a brain.

With items like Wit's End, Merc Treads, and Maw of Malmortious - you still ADD to your damage while building defense.

Last Whisper also increases your attack damage while penetrating 40% of enemy armor.

Lifesteal is something you buy for sustain, completely independent of an enemy thornmail.

So, that being said, the only thing you're 'investing' in is the MR portions of Wit's End and Maw - both of which increase your damage output regardless. Then, how do you quantify what amount of that MR is ONLY for thornmail? Sure, if no other enemy deals any magic damage, then the MR you purchased was entirely for Thornmail - but that is unlikely. Chances are, that MR is going to be mitigating more for you than Thornmail damage.

Sure, you can't build IE, 2 PDs, boots and MOAR DAMAGE!!1!!... but I would argue that if you're not building at least some defense to counter your enemies, you're doing it wrong.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Thornmail? Really?

I've got an idea...don't try to 1v1 the guy with thornmail as an auto attacker...

Higher skill players don't even buy the crappy item because it doesn't support your teammates at all.

If your whole team is auto attackers, the issue is your team comp not item balance...

Do you know what the item does against an AP champion? Absolutely nothing...

It's specifically designed as a counter to auto attackers...and such items need to exist so that teams don't run 3 AS buffers like nunu, J4, WW and Zekes and roll everything...


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SaintHax

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithZephyr View Post
You're forgetting Thornmail is calculated by your true damage(pre-armor),
Where did you get this information-- I've actually looked for it.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintHax View Post
Where did you get this information-- I've actually looked for it.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Thornmail


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chaser676

Senior Member

11-01-2012

First time ive ever seen a level 30 summoner call thornmail strong


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ZenithZephyr

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Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
The 'gold sink' to counter thornmail is difficult to quantify. You can not simply say, "Well ONLY because he has Thornmail, I had to buy lifesteal, MR, AND armor penetration!!!"

That's false. You buy those things anyway, regardless of an enemy thornmail, because you're an AD carry on 3s with half of a brain.

With items like Wit's End, Merc Treads, and Maw of Malmortious - you still ADD to your damage while building defense.

Last Whisper also increases your attack damage while penetrating 40% of enemy armor.

Lifesteal is something you buy for sustain, completely independent of an enemy thornmail.

So, that being said, the only thing you're 'investing' in is the MR portions of Wit's End and Maw - both of which increase your damage output regardless. Then, how do you quantify what amount of that MR is ONLY for thornmail? Sure, if no other enemy deals any magic damage, then the MR you purchased was entirely for Thornmail - but that is unlikely. Chances are, that MR is going to be mitigating more for you than Thornmail damage.

Sure, you can't build IE, 2 PDs, boots and MOAR DAMAGE!!1!!... but I would argue that if you're not building at least some defense to counter your enemies, you're doing it wrong.
Wit's End is a great example of an item that is decent, but not always optimal. Just finished your IE? Wit's End's damage does not stack with crit. Just finished a Last Whisper (maybe even to counter Thornmail!)? Wit's End's damage is magical. The damage doesn't scale for champs with AD ratios. Forty percent attack speed is cool and great for some champs, but the item is suboptimal for many. Maw is a better item for champs likely to be countered by Thornmail, but again what if you just finished IE? Stacking more AD instead of valuable AS, crit, and MS from Phantom Dancer is extremely suboptimal. I'm not saying carries and bruisers should be able to build glass cannon and win, but Thornmail is relatively cheap and requires immediate attention and goldsink, else a massive impact on some champs. AD casters like Pantheon could give a **** about Thornmail. Get LW like you were going to anyway and proceed as normal.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

11-01-2012

I'd rather they simply removed the hardcore tank items from Treeline, to be honest.
FoN and Randuin's are just way too strong in a 3v3 environment.


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Dannamoth

QA Analyst

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11-01-2012
1 of 6 Riot Posts

After looking at data from live, our own experience on TT, and watching player feedback we have decided to remove Thornmail from TT. We believe that it has too large of an impact on AD carries late game in a 3v3 match-up. Tanks will still have the option of picking up Randuin's Omen and Frozen Heart as anti AD items.


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Pika Fox

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Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannamoth View Post
After looking at data from live, our own experience on TT, and watching player feedback we have decided to remove Thornmail from TT. We believe that it has too large of an impact on AD carries late game in a 3v3 match-up. Tanks will still have the option of picking up Randuin's Omen and Frozen Heart as anti AD items.
Wouldnt FH and Randuins have more of an impact than Thornmail, since thornmail can be dealt with by the carry?


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Haeval

Senior Member

11-01-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannamoth View Post
After looking at data from live, our own experience on TT, and watching player feedback we have decided to remove Thornmail from TT. We believe that it has too large of an impact on AD carries late game in a 3v3 match-up. Tanks will still have the option of picking up Randuin's Omen and Frozen Heart as anti AD items.

I'm sorry; i just checked in again and saw a new red post. Unfortunately the largest voted issue that's currently in limbo is not being addressed, but I can't let this post go unnoticed.

What AD carries? Does this mean the AD carry AND bruiser tier? Because the first 2 levels of that tier actually only have 1 or 2 ad carries in them, and the rest bruisers...

So again, what AD carries?

Now don't get me wrong, I think this would be a step in the right direction to make adc's more viable, but that's just a tiny blip.


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