Thornmail needs to be looked at

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Alex The Grouch

Junior Member

10-31-2012

I have played many games lately on TT2. The games usually go as such, both teams have 1 or 2 bruisers/ad and 1 ap type. Ads or bruisers on one side win lane, other side spends 2k gold for their bruiser to get a thornmail, and win the game. OK, i dont know if i am crazy, but 2k gold to shut down any adc until late late game with the exception of maybe vayne, is absurd. 2k gold is such a relatively low cost for an item with 30% hitback on phys damage and 100 armor. I feel like this item should be either increased in price or reworked in some way as to not make it a game changer item. Thats my opinion, i just feel that the item is too good for the cost, and in TT with a heavy ad focus, the item just gets that much more valuable, one would need to build 2 sanguine blades, with the removal of BT in order to match the hitback with lifesteal. This is insane gold to counter one item. Thoughts...?


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-31-2012

sanguine blade, merc threads, and any other MR pretty much makes thornmail do 0 damage.


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Alex The Grouch

Junior Member

10-31-2012

i somewhat agree, however the cost for SB, Mercs and MR is still pretty high comparatively. I don't really know, just throwing the idea out there. All im saying is it really limits the variability in builds on ADs and hurts the customization farely badly. especially when a xin or other champ like that gets one, you cant focus him due to his hitback and tankyness, but he does endless damage. Its just a tricky item i suppose


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fiddlesticksssss

Senior Member

10-31-2012

For me mercs is almost priority on TT new and old. So mercs isn't out of the price range for me since its required. If i play a adc i will 100% pick up a sanguine blade as well and most likely blade of the ruined king. So that build which i always get forever on a adc or just ad in general will already nullify thornmail's damage.


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Alex The Grouch

Junior Member

10-31-2012

alright. i understand where you are coming from now, makes more sense. I just see the item shut people down too hard far too often, ill have to suggest this


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Squallian

Member

10-31-2012

Having lifesteal and any kind of armor pen = gg for thornmails. Even if the bruiser dies fighting, the AP cleans up. Besides most of the newer and stronger ad bruisers are melee casters in the first place.


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Chemlab

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Member

10-31-2012

frozen heart + thornmail is when you start meeting problems


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Realyst

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Senior Member

10-31-2012

At 200 AD, Thornmail returns 60 magic damage to your melee champion. At level 18, most champions have at least ~120 MR, which is roughly 50% magic damage reduction, which reduces that 60 magic damage to 30 magic damage (less than Sunfire damage). With 20% lifesteal (which isn't much mind you), at 200 AD you heal yourself for 40 health (10 more than what you lost from Thornmail's passive). 20% lifesteal is a lot cheaper than the combine-cost for Thornmail as well. What exactly are you complaining about?


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kharaa

Senior Member

10-31-2012

doing some extremely rough damage estimates, if say a well fed adc has 300 attack damage, thorn mail would return 100 damage, assuming that said carry had no magic resist.. well all champs have MR. the damage it returns is pitiful and really only of any concern on a character stacking attack speed.

otherwise as stated a little life steal negates the entire thing

more worrying to me, is frozen heart, which not only has the same armor (99 vs 100) but also reduces attack speed by a flat 20 percent in an aura, and reduces cooldowns.for roughly 800 more gold?


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ZenithZephyr

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Senior Member

10-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Logan View Post
At 200 AD, Thornmail returns 60 magic damage to your melee champion. At level 18, most champions have at least ~120 MR, which is roughly 50% magic damage reduction, which reduces that 60 magic damage to 30 magic damage (less than Sunfire damage). With 20% lifesteal (which isn't much mind you), at 200 AD you heal yourself for 40 health (10 more than what you lost from Thornmail's passive). 20% lifesteal is a lot cheaper than the combine-cost for Thornmail as well. What exactly are you complaining about?
You're forgetting Thornmail is calculated by your true damage(pre-armor), and lifesteal works on actual damage (post-armor). If the target has a Thornmail and are level 18, they are going to have slightly under 200 armor (approx 65%) damage reduction.

Damage dealt: 130
Life Stolen: 26
Damage Returned: Approx 28 (50 MR and 0 magic pen on target)
Damage dealt to self after factoring in lifesteal: 2

% of actual damage reflected after factoring Lifesteal vs Thornmail: 1%

So in your example you have effectively countered the Thornmail, or you could say the Thornmail is effectively countering your 20% lifesteal, but keep in mind the target can increase this percent by stacking additional armor, or if they have magic penetration (many tanks run magic pen runes). In a duel, this damage also increases over time with HP. And it adds up quickly. Having sorcerer's shoes, magic pen marks, and 10% spell pen jumps the percent returned to:

Damage dealt: 130
Life Stolen: 26
Damage Returned: Approx 51
Damage dealt to self after factoring in lifesteal: 25

% of actual damage reflected after factoring Lifesteal vs Thornmail: 19%

That quickly shoots the damage reflected up to 19%.

There's more to consider. When you get a Thornmail, you are getting exactly what you want. You want armor, you got it. Obviously you want the unique passive. While Life Steal and MR certainly aren't bad, they may come on items that are suboptimal for the build to counter Thornmail or that contain other stats or passives that are gold sinks in order to counter Thornmail.


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