Melee Carry Itemization

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The Untold

Senior Member

11-12-2012

The thing that makes a melee carry is AD/AS boost and some kind of way to break CC/snare

Trynd/Fiora - AD for trynd, AD/AS fiora
Yi,GP - AD/snare remove


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IS1dd0cba794c57948b76b3

Member

11-12-2012

But AD melee champs always have the option of building QSS or taking Cleanse... just because you choose spells that don't make your champ viable doesn't mean your champ isn't viable.

Tryn at release was terrifying. Not a joke at all. When you had a Tryn that was smart and took QSS, you could never kill them because they'd get rid of all CC and ignite so they could heal after the ult.

Lee Sin is still a very viable champion. Mainly because of his damage output and mobility. However, to master him takes a lot of time and patience because he's just a tricky champ.

Riven is also pretty good too.

The main problem I see with melee AD champs is that simply... ranged AD does the job better.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastBaron88 View Post
Actually, giving Tiamat Armor instead of Regen would really help to protect Melee Carries from one of their biggest problems, mainly that they are unable to build armor in the same item slot as an offensive stat (not counting Atmas, since it is aimed more at tanky dps). Not like most melees really need mana regen that badly anyway. Could help keep them from being so easily instagibbed.
As far as the passive being abused, I think it is more of a threat in its current incarnation than it would be with a buffed, but Unique passive. There is just no reason for an item effect to deal more damage to secondary targets than to your primary target. (Tiamat Stacking)
Contrary to popular belief, Atma's Impaler is not aimed towards bruisers. Here is a simple two-part explanation of how Atma's Impaler is supposed to work:
->Squishier damage champions build more scalars (attack speed, crit, crit damage); therefore, each point of ad benefits those squishier ad champions by more.
->Atma's Impaler was designed to even out this benefit by giving tougher bruisers more flat ad.

Overall, the benefits from taking Atma's Impaler are roughly the same between squishy high-damage champions and tougher low-damage champions. If anything, the item is somewhat in favor of the squishies with lots of crit and attack speed.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by axesandspears View Post
Contrary to popular belief, Atma's Impaler is not aimed towards bruisers. Here is a simple two-part explanation of how Atma's Impaler is supposed to work:
->Squishier damage champions build more scalars (attack speed, crit, crit damage); therefore, each point of ad benefits those squishier ad champions by more.
->Atma's Impaler was designed to even out this benefit by giving tougher bruisers more flat ad.

Overall, the benefits from taking Atma's Impaler are roughly the same between squishy high-damage champions and tougher low-damage champions. If anything, the item is somewhat in favor of the squishies with lots of crit and attack speed.
Interesting. I might try building it a bit more often, in that case. I had been under the impression that it was intended just to synergize with health stackers, using the passive.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Oh. My. GAWD. Just saw the Xypherous post on the new Tiamat and its upgrade. It looks incredible. It might actually do all that I hoped it would.
Although, it is odd that they chose to have it not scale with Crit, a core carry scalar. Perhaps THE core carry scalar. Having it based on Total AD and not applying crit makes it better for Bruisers than carries, doesn't it?


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67chrome

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATerribleSTD View Post
But AD melee champs always have the option of building QSS or taking Cleanse... just because you choose spells that don't make your champ viable doesn't mean your champ isn't viable.

Tryn at release was terrifying. Not a joke at all. When you had a Tryn that was smart and took QSS, you could never kill them because they'd get rid of all CC and ignite so they could heal after the ult.

The main problem I see with melee AD champs is that simply... ranged AD does the job better.
Tryndamere at release had better damage potential and a much higher critical strike multiplier. He also didn't have to put up with as much in terms of champions running away, Ezreal wasn't considered a solid pick until recently so Corki was about the only RADC that could escape. During said time period Cleanse also offered CC immunity for a brief duration rather than just removing half the debuffs in the game from your character; and the high-powered RADCs with as much damage steroids and MADCs, Vayne and Kog'Maw, weren't even released.

Beyond that, tenacity, cleanse, and most of the time Quicksilver Sash won't help you against things like Mega Adhesive, Fling, Pulverize, Headbutt, Rocket Grab, Power Fist, Cyclone, Command: Shockwave, Rupture, Moonfall, Void Ooze, Condemn, Buster Shot,Glacial Storm, Dragon's Rage, Heroic Charge, Unstoppable Force, Ground Slam, Explosive Cask, Thundering Blow, Devastating Charge, Satchel Charge, Apprehend, Dredge Line, Depth Charge, Howling Gale, Monsoon, among others. Cleanse won't even remove the healing debuff or 70% reduced damage debuff from Ignite and Exhaust, or a verity of DoT effects. It's pretty hit or miss with what it can actually remove, and has a rather lengthy cooldown on top of that - so it's unreliable and unreliable. You can also get CCed directly after you removed a CC effect - the chances of which are rather high if your melee range and in a teamfight.

It can be handy to slip out of CC effects in 1v1 fights though, but then again - I've found exhaust is usually even better in those situations. You have a guaranteed 30% damage reduction, it can help you get out of sticky situations ~50% of the time (about the same for Cleanse really, but without the damage reduction or offensive capacity itself). If you need both Cleanse and Quicksilver Sash to get out of focused CC, you are either already going to be dead from taking that much CC to the face, or at such low health you can't contribute to anything productive in a fight.

Anyways, Cleanse and Quicksilver Sash help MADCs become a little more effective, but not enough to be viable by themselves. Not to mention characters like Olaf show you really should have some EHP to go along with that CC Immunity, or else it won't help worth diddly. Of course, unlike MADCs Olaf doesn't even need to spend gold or summoner spells on Cleanse or Quicksilver Sash, gets damage from building health, and doesn't need armor penetration to deal with tanky foes.

The problem with MADCs isn't ignoring available solutions to their problems or that specific problems they have have no solutions, it's that they have way more problems to deal with than other champions. RADCs don't necessarily need to build survivability, MADCs do. Bruisers aren't as set-back by CC effects as MADCs as they can outlast CC durations more effectively, Assassins aren't as punished by building raw damage because their DPS is incredibly front-loaded allowing them to jump in and out of a fight, Bruisers+Mages+Assassins have enough burst damage to be duelists early on without building damage, AP scaling champions don't loose out on multiplicative stats when adding utility and survivability to their builds (as AP scaling is more or less linear), MADCs are heavily reliant on farm, but unlike APCs and RADCs they have a tougher time farming and are more open to harass in lane, the list goes on.


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-14-2012

I have heard various times that Release Tryndamere was only QQed by the pubs that he rightfully stomped. Chrome makes a good point in highlighting how he is still begrudged for this, in spite of how much more OP champs released after him have been, as well as the counterplay that RADCs released afterwards were granted against champs like him. The game has more or less progressed around him, I think, while he (as well as the other MADCs) have long been neglected. I mean, I think MADCs might be the least represented class in the game, considering that there are more Supports than Melee Carries. I am actually toying with the concept of a character that could fill both of those roles. But that is for a different forum.


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Nemesai

Junior Member

11-14-2012

how about boots of swiftness being melee only and giving u an active 'dash' on a 1min cd? that could counter a bit of the kitability. I can see that it could be abused though, like on lee sin or something... i like the idea tho


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dustyspells

Senior Member

11-15-2012

The major problem is that AD melee carries simply don't survive for long, especially in a teamfight.
Ranged carries can shoot out enemies from safe distance while tanky champs go frontline and absorb damages. But if you would build pure attack damage for a melee champ and hit your enemy in the middle of a teamfight, you would melt down so quickly before you even get close to enemies.
So melee champs either have to go defensive(tank) or half defense/half attack(bruiser).


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TheLastBaron88

Senior Member

11-16-2012

What about giving hard CC to a melee carry, built into their kit? Yi, Trynd, and Fiora don't really have this, but it works out fairly well for Jax. Irelia is another example, even though she is supposed to be like a Fighter/Assassin. Does this help to defend against that withering five champ focus MADCs tend to incur?