Why is Jayce considered cheesecake tier?

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Eloquid

Senior Member

01-07-2013

I'm not doing bad with him and I've done my homework and know the combos, but can't win a game with him. I usually end up 1st in my team but to no avail since game is lost. As opposed to Kayle, for instance, she's not even in first two tiers in Saurons list as I can remember, but I almost can lose with her.

What gives? I'm not asking you to teach me to play Jayce, I would just like to know why is he considered to be so good in Dominion (except spamming his acceleration?)


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Sauron

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Cannon Q+E combo is a long-range aoe Cho'Gath Feast on low cooldown. Easy chasing with hammer Q, easy disengage with hammer E, can do massive burst and melee-disengage with them together. Gets a SotD activation every 5 seconds; rediculous scaling on crit and life steal. Doesn't even need to rank his R at 6/11/16. Works insanely well with any tanky support or CC team comp, and only champions like Kass and KZ stand a chance at countering him as the game goes on.

If you look up Hypercarry, AD in the dictionary, Jayce takes up the entire page because he murdered all the entries around him.


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Eloquid

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Wow, that's the answer I hoped for Haha, just when I thought even Sauron wouldn't put it better, I realize it is you, anguished soul in insanely high-elo waiting forever in Dominion queue So I guess I simply have to get better with him. I use classic armor and magic resist yellows and reds and attack damage reds and quints. I tried armpen reds and quints and they seem better early game, but seem to get weaker as the game progresses in comparison.

Any suggestions regarding build? Is default recommended build in Dom good enough?

And thanks


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Sauron

Senior Member

01-07-2013

If you decide to go with ArPen, then you'll want to rank R at 6/11/16 for its reduction, and build Cleaver/Ghostblade/LW/Possibly 3rd Brutalizer.

But I'm pretty sure that the top Jayce players prefer him with the IE+Sanguine route, though, in which case you'll want AD, crit chance, or crit damage runes. Yellows and blues can largely be anything, and armor/MR is probably the right choice for them.

As long as you're not going the Trinity route with Jayce -- that's the big thing holding SR back from finding out that Jayce is OP.


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Ikruti

Senior Member

01-07-2013

One trick that helped me was learning that you can Q -> E instead of E -> Q in cannon. Leading off with the E is a large indicator that you're going to Q and therefore most opponents are going to start dodging.

However, due to the slower travel time of the non-accelerated Q, you can actual fire a Q and the E immediately afterwards and still get the E up in time to boost the Q. Takes a little practice but with proper timing can be done easily. This eliminates a lot of the lead up time and helps land the Q.


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Eloquid

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Cool. I heard about not ranking R, which is pretty unique for a champ. I also heard that those that don't rank R, prioritize Q-E, instead of E-Q, which seems to be more common. God forbid Trinity, except sheen procs there's too much of too little of everything for too steep a price there.
Thanks Ikruti, I heard about that too but didn't try it yet


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Ikruti

Senior Member

01-07-2013

This is also probably pretty obvious, but another thing that really helped me was in my mentality about what he is. I used to think of him only in terms of end game, a super hypercarry. Then I was frustrated when I keep getting stomped early game and having to wait until end game to be effective.

That's when I realized that you have two distinct games with him. See, carry has this connotation that there is a weak early game characterized by bad base values and great scaling. Hypercarry means that the effect is even more pronounced.

That's far from the truth though. Jayce has a great early game because he has great base stats on his moves. So the real trick is this, in the beginning think of him as an AD Caster and as you reach mid-game, his power shifts more in to his W. My mistake was leveling his W fast thinking "Well, that's where his end damage lies, so I need it high." But really, if you do that, you don't have the items to support a W based offense early on.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
If you decide to go with ArPen, then you'll want to rank R at 6/11/16 for its reduction, and build Cleaver/Ghostblade/LW/Possibly 3rd Brutalizer.

But I'm pretty sure that the top Jayce players prefer him with the IE+Sanguine route, though, in which case you'll want AD, crit chance, or crit damage runes. Yellows and blues can largely be anything, and armor/MR is probably the right choice for them.
I'm not sold on it. This math had been done a lot - ArPen wins from mid-game on, which comes a lot earlier on Dominion, especially as people build more armour in general than in SR. You should probably go for ArPen reds/quints and still go the normal IE+Sanguine route in items, and LW/BC when really called for.

I mean, going AD reds+quints and full AD item is gonna make you a less useful once anyone gets any defensive items than ArPen reds+quints and the same items. The loss of damage early is quite minimal compared to going for AD.


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FeanorAlmighty

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Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
I'm not sold on it. This math had been done a lot - ArPen wins from mid-game on, which comes a lot earlier on Dominion, especially as people build more armour in general than in SR. You should probably go for ArPen reds/quints and still go the normal IE+Sanguine route in items, and LW/BC when really called for.

I mean, going AD reds+quints and full AD item is gonna make you a less useful once anyone gets any defensive items than ArPen reds+quints and the same items. The loss of damage early is quite minimal compared to going for AD.
The power of AD runes (or crit damage for extreme lulz) is in the critting. No armor can protect you against crits of doom.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

01-07-2013

If your armour reduces damage by 50%, then your crit damage is also reduced by 50%.

If due to ArPen the enemy armour reduces 40%, then the crit is also only reduced by 40%. It's very simple to math out at which armour thresholds arpen is better than ad for how much damage you inflict. Crits due to being purely percentile in the amount of damage they add don't change it at all.

There are posts on Reign of Gaming under A DIFFerent View exploring these points. I'm only addressing ArPen vs AD. Crit%/Crit Dmg % is another kettle of fish, and I am not sure they updated the math completely for S3 on those yet.


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