Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.


The New Twisted Treeline: Comprehensive Analysis and Comparison

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yago Xiten

Senior Member


First off, I'd like to start out by saying that I really do quite enjoy this map, and there are a lot of things that are huge improvements over the old map, though it definitely has some obnoxious glaring issues, too.

There appears to be lots of threads on this subject already, but it doesn't seem like any of them break down things as much as I think would be helpful. Some valid points have been made, and I'm sure you'll recognize some.

Anyways, on with my analysis.

Visuals and Reformed Terrain

Well, the visuals are pretty epic, and difficult to really review, other than to say the map looks great!

That said, there does appear to be some problems that I've seen people mention--and experienced myself, with massive FPS spikes and lags. Not sure what the cause of this, but it is certainly troublesome and needs fixed.

To be honest, I would like the visuals toned down, if possible, just a little bit, because I had to lower my resolution to get the same frame rate I had on the previous map back. Except on the previous map my screen didn't start jumping around like a ferret that drank way too much coffee every few minutes.

Anyways, upon loading the new map, it's pretty obvious that there's been dramatic changes to the terrain.

First, the endless turtling and backdooring problems have been fixed, which was one of the major problems with game-play on the first Twisted Treeline.

The wall around the Summoner Platform adds a couple of seconds to getting down to the Nexus and Nexus Turret, which can really help when your team goes in for that final decisive push, with only a few seconds until the enemy team revives. Thankfully, though, this can be Flashed over--so trying to get down to your Nexus to defend shouldn't cost you too many wins.

This wall also prevents the enemy team biding time and using the Nexus Obelisk to destroy your hard earned super minions.

Furthermore, the massive thickening of the back wall means that no longer will your base be destroyed by the entire enemy team Flashing and backdooring your Nexus Turret and Nexus.

Before, Tryndamere, Lee Sin, Shaco, and several other champions were able to single handedly win the game if you left the base for even a small amount of time.

The thin wall and threat of backdooring actually forced you into turtling. If you left your base undefended, it was good game.

The top jungle is gone, the main jungle has been reworked, some brush patches have been shifted or even removed, and there's a speed shrine and some of these Altar things now, too.

Firstly, the top jungle being removed is actually rather depressing. Whilst I enjoy the map being more compact, as it makes it more fast paced, a lot of the action area was up top, and the loss of my circular brush patches and tangled walkways has me and a good friend of mine a little bummed at the loss of some good old juking fun.

I'm not really a jungler, so I can't really speak much about the viability of jungling now versus before. It seems, from what I was practicing with Elise, jungling is a fair bit more viable now, but I'm not sure.

Oh and all the jungle buffs have been removed. There is somewhat of a replacement, I'll get to that later, though.

The brush patch alterations has removed some of the juking potential, this is a shame, but also, as the new map is pretty twisty, with lots of natural fog of war places without the need of brush ,somewhat nice.

Id like to see a couple more changes in our foliage friends, though. Name, restoring the tri-brushes by the jungle trail in between the first and second turrets, the removal of the brushes in the middle of the lanes, and some added circular brush patches! The ones at the pathways from the jungle, and by the first turret are great.

The main reason I advocate the removal of the ones in the lane is that they give too huge an advantage to laning. The lanes are really small, and if you get control of the brush, it's far to easy to shut down your opponent, since they can't even remotely get close to the minions without getting mauled.

The other thing with brush is that people have a habit of randomly sitting in them. Whilst sitting in brush to set up a gank is central to LoL gameplay, it is a bit too strong in the Twisted Treeline--especially with the removal of wards. Sure, you can use Hextech Sweeper or Grez's Spectral Lantern to check a brush patch, but it has too long of a cooldown to do this reliably enough to make a difference, and too low a cooldown would defeat the purpose of brush in the first place.

Entire teams can sit in a brush and instantly kill a member of the opposing team. Whilst this is possible on Summoner's Rift, losing a single member of the team instantly is a bit less important there. With only three members total, going from 100% to 66.6% strength is a lot worse than going from 100% to 80%. The problem is basically that whoever gets the brush first--wins the fight. Either the team remains overly cautious, or adventures out to get attacked by random brush sitters. Playing against a brush camping Garen is annoying. It's far worse when the entire enemy team does it!

And it isn't too much of a real strategy or positioning with it in comparison to Summoner's Rift.

On the old map (and I suspect it will, unfortunately, return with time) there also appears this trend of waiting in brush like this for first blood. There's not too much you can do about it, especially now with the removal of wards.

With there being brush in the lane, you enter a stalemate of waiting in a brush losing experience, or too scared to go and get some for yourself. I've seen some really persistent teams who wait two, even three whole minion waves before coming out to adopt a more proper laning arrangement than three people sitting in a brush patch.

This is beginning to happen with the Altars and their brush patches a lot.

Speaking of which...

Altars and Vilemaw

Love them or hate them, they are a brand new controversial issue.

These are the jungle buff replacements.

Some people have said they feel Dominion like, but I don't think they do at all. I really like the concept of some contested area you fight over, but the way these altars are executed, at least in my opinion, is awful!

First, I don't get what we're supposed to do with them at the start of the match.

Minions spawn at I believe 1:15. But the altars do not unlock until 2:00. You would think that in that time that the laning would commence as normal, until they unlock. This is not what happens, though.

Immediately, teams rush to the enemy team's altar to "invade" it. The problem with this, though, is that they spend forty-five seconds doing nothing, waiting on it to unlock. The first couple of minion waves usually go completely untouched! (Usually, first blood is gotten by randomly sitting in altar brush, too.)

Since the enemy team wants to keep us from our altar, they tend to sit on it as three. However, it is incredibly easy to just back capture the altar on their side of the map as a result. So we just usually trade points, and get a cheap first blood or die a horrible stupid death.

Actually capturing an altar is its own ridiculous thing, too. You literally just have to sit on it. The problem is that once on the altar, the only way to slow or stop the capture is to get up there with them. Unlike the capture points in Dominion where you can't move or take action, there is quite a bit of wiggle room and they can fight back. As a result, you can't even poke them off. And bruisers, which are supposed to be being nerfed on this map, are pros at capturing the altars. After all, it's not like Vayne's gonna get up there to try and stop you, Olaf...

This means Nunu, Katarina, Galio, Wukong, and the like have a massive advantage to the Altars. It basically becomes "Give us the buff or lose the teamfight" if you happen to go against them.

As for how to fix the altars, I can think of a number of ways that would be pretty nice.

First, only one altar. Put it where the Speed Shrine is, and replace the current altar positions with Speed Shrines.

Second, increase the size of the capture surface by a fairly large deal, or make it captured like the Dominion points. It's not fair to force you into melee range if you want the buff, it gives far too much of an advantage to those champions, and those who can completely prevent people from getting close.

Make this Altar unlock to be capture-able at 5 minutes. You need some time to do laning and such, first. Capturing it should take a about 30 to 15 seconds, so that the enemy team has time to push you off of it, or to go get Vilemaw while you're busy. This makes some real choices and strategy return to the map.

Once the point is captured, it lasts for 90 seconds, before reseting to neutral. At this point, the buff is lost on the team who had it. This means that you'll have to go fight for it again if you want it again. The buff should be the current Vilemaw buff. Vilemaw should return to the Crest of Crushing Wrath buff, which granted increased damage.

Item List Restriction and Revision

One of the biggest changes to the map was the massive changes to the shop.

Perhaps one of the most prevalent problems with the previous map was that tanky bruisers had way too much power, and attack damage and ability power carries far too little.

So, to help balance that out in the new map there have been some new item additions, and some items have been removed.

Starting with the items that have been removed: Warmog's Armor, Leviathan, Guardian Angel, Wriggle's Lantern, The Bloodthirster, Madred's Bloodrazor, Sword of the Occult, Executioner's Calling, Mejai's Soulstealer, Rabadon's Deathcap, Sight Ward, Vision Ward, Elixir of Brilliance, Elixir of Fortitude, Elixir of Agility, and Orcale's Elixir.

The new additions are: Hextech Sweeper, Overlord's Bloodmail, Blackfire Torch, Lord Van Damm's Pillager, Grez's Spectral Lantern, Wicked Hatchet, Blade of the Ruined King, Sanguine Blade, Wooglet's Witchcap, Ichor of Rage and Ichor of Illumination.

I've got a section later on dealing with the removal of wards, so we'll skip over that.

Going in order, though. The removal of Warmog's Armor was a pretty wise decision. Considering the prevalence of bruisers and tanks, it's nice to see that that massive wall of health is a little bit less intimidating. This certainly helped to accomplish the intended goal of weakening them.

To make up for this some and not completely cripple the tankier champions, however, Overlord's Bloodmail was added. Not much to say here. It grants less health, though potentially nearly as much should you manage to stick around for the first couple of kills.

Overall, noting wrong with that situation.

Skipping around a little bit, Leviathan, Sword of the Occult, and Mejai's Soulstealer have been removed. The Snowball Trio going missing really doesn't affect the game all that much, to be honest.

That said, I personally am not happy with this, because they were designed to be all-in fast paced items--which I think would be perfect for the new Shadow Isles.

The removal of Guardian Angel is definitely one of my favorite restrictions added. The item granted fantastic amounts of survivability from its Armor and Magic Resistance, and that extra life made some of the champions almost literally unkillable.

It's a fine item, but I just felt it was a little too strong. On the previous match it just made tanks too tanky, and drew the turtle-fest out even longer.

Wriggle's Lantern was one of the most frustrating items on the old map. It was cheap and very effective.

One was found in almost every single game, and its ward was a prime cause of the warding problem (see below for my opinions on the previous map and wards).

The life steal gave way too much sustain to difficult to kill targets, made farming, jungling, taking out the Dragon, and if you were Lee Sin, escaping, far too easy. It was a real toxic and no brainer item. You could make it on attack damage carries, bruisers, tanks, I'd even seen an Akali or two get away with it quite nicely, and it was necessary in every game. Its removal means that our bruiser friends will have to find lifesteal by investing in other items--which will mean they won't get the armor, or the ward.

To counter act its removal, Grez's Spectral Lantern has been added. This item grants two more damage, and a little bit less of a price tag is found on it. You can also use it to reveal an area.

Well, this item, I just plain don't get. I cannot see why one would ever consider picking one up, really. The farming boost from Madred's Razor's really isn't that fantastic. It doesn't grant the sustain Wriggle's did. You gain more damage and Armor simply by purchasing an Atma's--even if you only have a small healthpool.

The active isn't even particularly useful or strong. Personally, I think that the active on this item and Hextech Sweeper should be reworked to be more like Clairvoyance, or perhaps the Lightbringer. Invisibility isn't something all that common in LoL to justify the item. And an Oracle's Extract does that job better. Checking brush is nice, but the map lost some brush patches.

I feel like Aegis of the Legion just makes this new Lantern redundant.

The Bloodthirster was replaced with Sanguine Blade, not much to say here, it's a perfectly understandable item swap, and I'm fine with it.

Madred's Bloodrazor was removed as well. Now this one, I don't get. I could understand replacing it with Kitae's but flat our removing it I do not follow. Blade of the Ruined King somewhat does its job, but it trades Lifesteal for Attack Speed and Armor. I am not sure if this is the most fair trade. Perhaps it is done because Vilemaw gives that nice attack speed boost.

Anyways, I'd really like one form of this item back, perhaps. It's a change I'm not completely in agreeance with, but it doesn't appear to be a major issue so far.

Executioner's Calling's removal seems somewhat random to me. It was basically replaced by Wicked Hatchet for anti-healing purposes. But it wasn't a really strong item to begin with. Perhaps the point was just to further reduce the sustain provided by lifesteal. Not completely sure, either way, I'm alright with its absence from this mode. I do not think it will be seriously mourned too much. Wicked Hatchet just feels all around better.

Rabadon's was replaced by Wooglet's. This is a pretty fair trade. You lose 40 AP + 5% of total AP, but the movespeed boost makes up for it, in my opinion. I am pretty happy with this replacement.

The Elixir items were replaced by Ichors. This is great, they provide similar stats but are a little bit more expensive.

My only complaint here is that the Ichor of Rage increases damage done to turrets. If you read the section later on, I feel the turrets are far to easy to focus down as is (especially with a Lich Bane or Trinity Force), and so that part of it should be removed.

I feel like Oracle's Elixir should be used over Oracle's Extract, seeing as how the Extract and the Elixir tend to play exactly the same, anyways. Though that's pretty minor.

As for the other new items that I have not mentoined...

Hextech Sweeper is a fantastic addition to this game mode! I have been waiting for it, and I got it. Whilst the stats on it are all fairly mediocre, it is cost efficient, and its passive ability makes it a lot easier to consistently hit your target and not get juked. This makes a huge difference to the viability of AP casters. It's active can be helpful, however, like the previously mentioned Lantern, it feels too weak and downright useless a lot.

Blackfire Torch appears pretty controversial. It ticks on every spell damage instance, which means that DoT based casters can deal some pretty ridiculous damage with it alone. I think this could be fixed by making it only apply the Blackfire Torch DoT if the target does not have it already. Otherwise, it does its job of helping you burn down tankier targets easier. I feel like this item is too good to be true on some, and bad on others. A Nidalee, for example, gains almost nothing from it. Whilst a Malzahar gains an incredible amount of damage due to his DoTs.

Lord Van Damm's Pillager is obscenely good. The item grants fantastic stats, and honestly, I think it's little bit too strong as of now with its high amount of Armor Penetration. Just some minor tweaks with its numbers would be fine. But that 25 Armor penetration, combined with Runes, Masteries, and some Champion abilities, has true damage floating around on some really scary guys. I know this is the Shadow Isles, but still...Olaf, for example, won't even need to bother with his E, his basic attacks already deal every bit as much damage.The second they get this item they become incredibly difficult to stop. It's a fine item, just needs toning down a little bit.

A few more things on the shop before we move onto talking about wards.

I do not understand why we did not get Entropy or the Lightbringer.

I think both items would be welcome additions to the game mode, and perhaps even Odyn's Veil.

Another thing is that Frozen Mallet, Trinity Force, and Phage are too powerful on this map. Without the ability to juke as well or Flash over walls, once you get hit, you are done for. I would say that making the slow decay over the duration would be a nice change, that way you can still get out if you disable your pursuer or Flash or Ghost out.

The only other item related comment is that though tanky champions seem to have a lot less health now, they seem to to be stacking resistances--and to the same previous end. Our bruiser foes can be ridiculously hard to kill.

Perhaps some minor alterations to Thornmail, Force of Nature, and the heavier defensive items might help a little bit.

Removal of Wards

This has received some mixed feelings from the community. Though, I think the feedback on this one is more negative overall, I'm personally overjoyed.

The main problem with the wards was that the old map was too small to really support good ward play.

There were incredibly few ward points, and the few that existed were so ridiculously important to the game, that both teams were consistently warding, and counter-warding the same locations.

Wards are a reactive and adaptive part of the game, not a static one. While general trends remain throughout the game, the main point of wards is to place them as the game develops in varying locations to offer insight to make up for some of your weaknesses. You could put a ward so you could push a lane, or know it was safe to extend past your turret.

In the previous Twisted Treeline--this wasn't happening. It was so required to control those ward points, that it either became an endless tug-o-war over them, or the vision the wards provided might as well have been a given. It felt like the entire map was revealed for incredible lengths of time. Well, that or your team was constantly in the dark--and your K/D ratio would show it.

They just weren't fun. There were some unorthodox ward spots you could use, but they just didn't offer enough to really justify the existence of wards in the shop.

The other thing about this is the atmosphere of the game. This is the Shadow Isles now. It's spooky, and the paranoia of not knowing exactly where the enemy is adds to that mood. I'm a big fan of immersion, so this is important to me.

Minions and Turrets

First things first, I think minions are a little bit ridiculous in this map, now.

To counter turtling it appears that more minions have been added to the map, but the amount is absolutely ridiculous.

After about the thirty minute mark, minions will push with ridiculous force, even in the case of a double ace you can lose a turret or two to a massive wave.

This only gets worse if you lose an inhibitor.

Though I'm happy that the minion pushing has gone up to prevent turtling, it's just a wee bit too much. Toning that down would be nice. Before the minions weren't a threat at all, and this is a huge problem.

Perhaps it's just the fact that you can't pull them into the Nexus Obelisk anymore.

Either way, champions without oodles of AoE have a hard time later defending. Unless your Vayne stacks Tiamats, she might not be able to stop the super minions from destroying your turret should she be the sole survivor of a team fight.

As for the turrets, (and again I might be wrong) they appear to do significantly less stacking damage now. This really has made the bruisers similarly too strong, as before, because though they lack health, and some items have made it a bit easier to take them down, they can turret dive or focus with impunity.

Like on Summoner's Rift, there should be two turrets. Space them out a bit, though, one on the north side and one on the south side, so they only overlap their attack range in the middle of the two.

As of now, if you're slightly behind the enemy team, they can suicide dive to take out the final turret, knowing that they will revive and stop your push, and then be able to end with nothing to stop them. Or even just kill your inhibitors and watch you die to the massively buffed minions.

A single turret is just too weak and too easy to focus.It can't handle the minions, and a second one would really help your Vayne with that lack of Tiamats problem to defend.

Oh, and the altars grant that gold buff, but what with all the minions around, it feels really excessive and enables too much steamrolling.


Misc. Gameplay

So this is something I also noticed but had forgotten to mention.

Something akin to Chalice of Harmony is now around on the map passively.

Remove this. People need mana problems. It helps to balance some of them.

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yago Xiten

Senior Member



Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.




Very good analysis of the map. I like the point you raise about the altars. I agree the fact you cannot disrupt people from taking them is a HUGE problem. The timing of the altars is a problem as well. They do unlock way too early. The 45 seconds of down time happens in almost every game I play. I really like your suggestion of the altars going neutral after a duration. That would clear up a lot of issues with altar control. It would give good opportunities for the losing team to gank if the winning team wants to keep control over the two altars. Very good post.

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yago Xiten

Senior Member


So, after playing a bunch more games, I can safely say that the core problem that the remake of this map was supposed to address--Tanky Champions being too strong, and AP being too weak-- is still 100% unchanged.

Magic Penetration is just not enough to out do tanks.

Armor Penetration works better on Attack damage characters because they have more consistent damage and sustain.

I can think of two prime item changes to fix this:

Blackfire Torch

Currently, Blackfire Torch is only useful on the very champions it was designed to counter!

There are two main problems with it:

1. It deals Magic damage.

Casters, being almost all Magic damage, are countered by buying Magic Resistance.

Imagine for a second, if Madred's Bloodrazor's were physical damage.

On a target with 4000 health, you'd be dealing 160 extra damage a hit, reduced by armor. A Thornmail alone would reduce this down to 80.

You'd actually gain more damage simply by buying a Bloodthirster and getting a Critical.

The whole point of Madred's Bloodrazor's being Magic Damage, is that it forces the tank to take some Magic Resistance, and splitting his defenses a bit.

Change the damage type of this item to Physical.

2. It scales off of Current health.

Make it maximum health scaling.

Non-DoT Non-AoE spells should have full effect--about 6% of maximum health.

AoE spells should have about half effect, 3% of maximum health.

DoT spells should be about .6% of maximum health a second.

AoE DoT spells should be about .3% of maximum health a second.

This really is not that much.

Assuming LeBlanc hits with Q, W, E, R, she'd be able to deal 6% + 3% + 12% (Two hits from E) + 12% (Two hits from Mimic'd E), or 33% of their maximum health as physical damage with this item.

Keep in mind, LeBlanc has two extra hits in her combo that most champions won't, and that this is before reductions!

Deathfire Grasp

Change the stats on the item from:

Deathfire Grasp

+80 Ability Power

UNIQUE Active: Deals magic damage to target champion equal to 15% of their current health (+5% per 100 ability power) with a minimum of 200 damage. (60 Second Cooldown).


Deathfire Grasp

+80 Ability Power

UNIQUE Passive: +15% Cooldown Reduction

UNIQUE Active: Deals magic damage to target champion equal to 15% of their current health (+2.5% per 100 Ability Power) with a minimum of 200 damage, and true damage equal to (5% per combined 50 Magic Resistance target champion has).

Though it was too powerful most the time, the nerf of this item has crippled the already weak ability of Mages to fight tanks. This remake seeks to fix this.

Here's some math craft to support this:

If you have 600 AP, and use this on a target with 250 Armor and 250 Magic resistance you will deal
30% of current health as Magic damage {15% + 15% (2.5% * [600/100])}+ 25% of current health as True damage {(5% * [250/50])}.

The final amount of damage the target would take, after reductions, would be approximately 33.57% of current health.

If you have 600 AP and use this on a target with 70 Armor and 30 Magic Resistance you will deal 30% of current health as Magic damage {15% + 15% (2.5% * [600/100])}+ 3% of current health as True damage {(5% * [30/50])}.

The final damage dealt to the target after reductions will be approximately 26.07% of current health.

These two item changes should allow Mages to better take out tanks.

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.


Senior Member



Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yago Xiten

Senior Member



Ok, what?

And come on, guys, I'd like a little more feedback, please.

I know it's a long post, but it's very thorough. I took great care to make sure it wasn't too bad to read.

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.


Senior Member


Very well put together anbd thought through, Only question i have is with your new blackfire torch, it works a little like madreds so instead of ticking over 3 secs it would do damages as its being dealt?

Say for example i use ryze and throw his q at you, does it deal 6%f flat or 6% over 3 secs stilll?

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yago Xiten

Senior Member


Very well put together anbd thought through, Only question i have is with your new blackfire torch, it works a little like madreds so instead of ticking over 3 secs it would do damages as its being dealt?

Say for example i use ryze and throw his q at you, does it deal 6%f flat or 6% over 3 secs stilll?

I would personally prefer flat.

I left it ambiguous because I was not sure myself which it should be.

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Yago Xiten

Senior Member


Bumping this.

Would like some feedback.

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mateus Fofao

Junior Member


I like what you have to say Dark Blade Yago, and agree with all of it. I also want to point out that you can stack an insane amount on Armour pen on TT. With Ghostblade, Brutalizer, and the new Pillager. I ran a bruiser with Armor pen Quints and it became unfair for the other team. Not trying to brag I'm just saying they need to take Ghostblade off of TT. Otherwise you can stack up to 50 armor pen by mid game.