Blackfire Torch and Singed

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ReaverofDoom

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Member

10-25-2012

Does it stack on his q, as an aoe, or does the bonus damage not work at all with it?


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ReaverofDoom

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10-25-2012

Still wondering


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LawlerBrawler

Senior Member

10-25-2012

I'd like to know this too


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I Pown Ur Mom

Junior Member

10-27-2012

I think it does. I just played him on TT. Not as OP as I expected tho, but still great.


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Nularia

Senior Member

10-27-2012

Problem is the blackfire torch does magic damage in the %, meaning it not only scales on their HP, but it aslo has to be tried against their Magic Resistance, try getting a void staff on champions that you use it alot on, and you should see better numbers.


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Hoizengerd

Senior Member

10-27-2012

yes, it works with his Q, & it's bs...maybe it was unintended or they didn't think about the double tick damage


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Boagster

Senior Member

10-27-2012

It does not stack with itself, but it will reapply each second an enemy stands in the poison. Also, the effect is only half because it's a DoT. That causes ~0.833% of their current health in magic damage for each second an enemy stands in the poison, and then two more seconds after they leave. Compare that to the damage he is already doing, and it's not that much. Examples:

***If you want to skip over the math, look for the item names in bold towards the bottom***



At rank 5, Poison Trail does 70 base damage. Assuming a 2000 HP opponent:
70 / 2000 = 0.350 = 3.5% of max health.

Blackfire Torch would add, assuming opponent is at max health:
2000 • 0.00833 = 16.6666 damage
16.6666 / 70 = 0.238 = 23.8% of Poison Trails base damage.

At 75% max health:
1500 • 0.00833 = 12.4999 damage
12.4999 / 70 = 0.179 = 17.9% of Poison Trails base damage.

At 50% max health:
1000 * 0.00833 = 8.3333 damage
8.3333 / 70 = 0.119 = 11.9% of Poison Trails base damage.

At 25% max health:
500 • 0.00833 = 4.1666
4.1666 / 70 = 0.060 = 6.0% of Poison Trails base damage.

Compare that to the flat bonus Blackfire Torch's bonus AP (50) would provide:
50 • 0.30 = 15
15 / 70 = 0.214 = 21.4% of Poison Trails base damage

The bonus AP does the same amount of damage as the passive at ~1798 HP.

So, total at 100% max health, assuming 2000 HP:
23.8% + 21.4% = 45.2% of Poison Trails base damage.
At 75%:
17.9% + 21.4% = 39.3% of Poison Trails base damage.
At 50%:
11.9% + 21.4% = 33.3% of Poison Trails base damage.
At 25%:
6.0% + 21.4% = 27.4% of Poison Trails base damage.

You would, however, get two extra ticks of the Blackfire Torch effect at the end, skewing this slightly.



Now, compare that to, say, Rylai's, a common core item for Singed:
80 AP • 0.30 AP ratio = 24 damage
24 / 70 = 0.343 = 34.3% of Poison Trails base damage.

How about Wooglet's Witchcap?
100 AP + (100 • 0.25 bonus AP) = 125 AP
125 AP • 0.30 AP ratio = 37.5 damage
37.5 / 70 = 0.536 = 53.6% of Poison Trails base damage.

Now, to compare the items as a whole (bonus HP from mana on items factored in):

Blackfire Torch - 2890 gold - 21.4-45.2% (assuming 2000 HP opponent) of Poison Trails base damage, 387.5 HP, 350 Mana
Rylai's Crystal Scepter - 3105 gold - 34.4% of Poison Trails base damage, 500 HP, 15% slow on Poison Trail.
Wooglet's Witchcap - 2700 gold - 53.6% of Poison Trails base damage, +10% MS, +25% AP

Rylai's provides more utility and 112.5 more HP for only 215 more gold (the mana on any item, after bonus HP is calculated, is almost useless on Singed), while Wooglet's provides you with more damage, plus it gives you more AP out of your other items and a movespeed buff, all for 190 less gold.


TL;DR:
With these numbers, Blackfire Torch is a subpar item compared to other common options, such as Rylai's and Wooglet's. I'll do 3000 max HP next.


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Boagster

Senior Member

10-27-2012

I realize, after doing all the math with a 2000 HP opponent, that we are talking about Twisted Treeline here, and that means bruisers. You are very likely to see something more like 3000 HP, so let's see how it stacks up there.

At 100% health:
3000 • 0.00833 = 24.9999 damage
24.9999 / 70 = 0.357 = 35.7% of Poison Trails base damage.

At 75% health:
2250 • 0.00833 = 18.7499 damage
18.7499 / 70 = 0.268 = 26.8% of Poison Trails base damage.

At 50% health:
1500 • 0.00833 = 12.4999 damage
12.4999 / 70 = 0.179 = 17.9% of Poison Trails base damage.

At 25% health:
750 • 0.00833 = 6.2499 damage
6.2499 / 70 = 0.089 = 8.9% of Poison Trails base damage.

Again, the Blackfire Torch will tick off twice more after they leave the poison trail, skewing these numbers slightly. But most people aren't standing in the poison for only one second, so the bulk of the damage is covered above.

The bonus AP still does the same amount of damage at ~1798 HP, meaning it's still doing more damage through most of your opponents HP.

So, total with the AP:
At 100% health:
35.7% + 21.4% = 57.1% of Poison Trails base damage.
At 75%:
26.8% + 21.4% = 48.2% of Poison Trails base damage.
At 50%:
17.9% + 21.4% = 39.3% of Poison Trails base damage.
At 25%:
8.9% + 21.4% = 30.3% of Poison Trails base damage.

So, Wooglet's Witchcap helps nearly as much as the Blackfire Torch doing damage to someone at 3000 HP. Actually, it does just as well as the Blackfire Torch does when someone is at roughly ~2700 HP. I can hardly justify taking Blackfire Torch now - the extra damage from Wooglet's, the AP buff to your other items, and the movespeed buff is far, far better than Blackfire Torch is, for 190 gold less.

Again, I understand it ticks off for an additional two seconds after Singed's poison stops ticking. Let's use that 2700 HP baseline from above, assuming they only get hit by Singed's poison cloud for 1 second:

2700 starting HP, 70 base damage, 15 damage from bonus AP, plus the 0.833% from the passive.
2700 - 70 - 15 - (2700 • 0.00833) = 2700 - 85 - 24.4999 = 2590.5 (I'd round, but I don't know how LoL rounds damage or HP)
2590.5 - 70 - 15 - (2590.5 • 0.00833) = 2700 - 85 - 21.5875 = 2483.9125
2483.9125 - 70 - 15 - (2483.9125 • 0.00833) = 2483.9125 - 85 - 20.6993 = 2378.2132

That's the damage while the poison ticks. Now, the last two seconds, only dealing damage from the passive:
2378.2132 - (2378.2132 • 0.00833) = 2378.2132 - 19.8184 = 2358.3948
2358.3948 - (2358.3948 • 0.00833) = 2358.3948 - 19.6533 = 2338.7415

That's a total of roughly 361 damage.

Now, how about the damage from Wooglet's:
2700 starting HP, 70 base damage, 37.5 damage from bonus AP, or 107.5 total damage
2700 - (107.5 • 3) = 2377.5

Or 322.5 damage. Blackfire does a whopping 38.5 extra damage here! And that's while Blackfire Torch is still doing decent damage!

By far and large, I'm sticking with RoA first (it provides 811 HP to Singed once it's full), and then either Rylai's or Wooglet's, depending on if my team is struggling with people running or not.


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Boagster

Senior Member

10-27-2012

After running all this math, I kind of want to do a bunch of item-comparisons like this for a lot of the champions I play. Hrmmmm....


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Akumis

Member

10-27-2012

Thanks a bunch Boagster, this is super helpful. I've been running Blackfire on Singed after RoA for the extra stats early, but I'll be ditching it now unless it's an endgame item to help take down tanks.

Now when are we going to get Wooglet's in SR? God I love that little hat.


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