Before you ever make an elo hell thread please define the term

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Bravest Leader

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10-24-2012

elo used in league has been modified for a team environment. It is not the elo developed for chess, so quit saying that that's its problem.

Also if it was hard to climb out of an elo double lift wouldn't have 5 smurfs above 2k and I wouldnt stomp everygame ridiculously hard under 1800


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Bravest Leader

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10-24-2012

also elo isn't an abbreviation. stop saying ELO, its elo.


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SynSasion

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10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereg Anfaug View Post
"
If League were a 1 v 1 game, and I constantly lost my games and ended up in <1000 ELO score bracket then yes, that is were I belong. When I am playing a 5 v 5 game that ultimately comes down to which team has that toxic player that starts to go off first and I consistently get that toxic player, that is ELO Hell."

This. This exactly. Statistically, the odds of that are better then 50% for your team. 50% Exactly if you're toxic. You want to bring numbers into this, then accept probability. You can't be on the team with the toxic player, or the bad player, or the new level 30, or whatever; the majority of the time... unless you are that player.

This is why ELO hell is a myth.
Statistically if you flip a penny 100 times you are supposed to get 50 heads and 50 tails too.

Statistically if you go into a casino you will lose money only 51% of the time.

And if statistics were true, no one would venture very far from low ELO brackets because you would win half the time and lose half the time.


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Sereg Anfaug

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10-24-2012

If we're going to get technical, you should capitalize the first letter of your post =P But I'm on your side here.

Edit: Syn... are you hearing what you're saying here? The reason you change ELO brackets is because of personal skill. If your skill is higher then your ELO bracket, you will win more then 50% of the time, until your ELO reaches a level where you do win 50% of the time. Similarly, if it's lower, then you will lose more then 50% of the time. That's the entire point of the system. Its goal is to assign you a number that predicts how often you'll win. Only when that number is accurate will 50% be consistent.

As far as casinos go, take some advice from our friend Twisted Fate... "The house always wins". Fifty percent is not accurate in that example either.

Edit: Actually... your final line would be the case if ELO hell did exist, not if it didn't.


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GingerBeardMan

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Take it from me, someone who has been as low as 970 and as high as 1517, I've also played with people who are 1900. Mathematically there is no elo hell, simply because factors that are outside of your control are the same for everyone which by definition means they cannot be the reason you aren't able to gain elo. But, after 3k games played and countless hours of reading guides / watching pro streams I can tell you it certainly feels random lol. At the same time, I played poker at a loss for more than a year while I made statistically correct moves. Sometimes, it really is just a game of time.

I will say though I'm working on a new theory that would sort of define elo hell, in that games could be decided entirely random based on champion counter match ups that wouldn't be the same across the board. More importantly these would apply to your placement matches. Chaox just recently went from 0 ranked games played and won 8 out of his 10 placement matches landing him at 1500 Elo off the bat. At 1500 Elo players know more about the meta / how to effectively deal with counter picking and then player skills become more important.


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Bravest Leader

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10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SynSasion View Post
Statistically if you flip a penny 100 times you are supposed to get 50 heads and 50 tails too.

Statistically if you go into a casino you will lose money only 49% of the time.

And if statistics were true, no one would venture very far from low ELO brackets because you would win half the time and lose half the time.
Dude. I've had streaks of more than 13 4v5s in a row. My elo goes down. You know what happens then? I play more and it goes back up to where it is normally because that's where my skill level consistently puts me at.


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GingerBeardMan

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10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardboardowl View Post
Dude. I've had streaks of more than 13 4v5s in a row. My elo goes down. You know what happens then? I play more and it goes back up to where it is normally because that's where my skill level consistently puts me at.
Wow, 13 4v5's in a row I don't even think I've had that many in over 3k games played lol. DAYEM that's HATEFUL.

However, your argument is a bit flawed. You're saying that you can gain elo completely based on your play alone, or what is called " carrying " a team. The only way you can " carry " a team in lol is to give them the correct instructions and then they actually do them. If you play like a pro and you have 4 derps on your team, you're still going to lose it's just a fact of the game. pros don't win low elo games with mechanics, they win them with communication and good calls. Just recently chaox did his first 10 ranked matches on a smurf and in almost every game he played he had derps for team mates, but they listened to what he said and followed his instructions once he dunked on his lane and proved he wasn't a moron. Two of his games were people who wouldn't listen and the result was defeat.

I've played many games where you have a extremely fed mid or top lane that just beasts on everyone and we end up still coming back and winning because our team played better as a whole the entire game. In fact I have one on my youtube account: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVcM5YPuEvY


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SynSasion

Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereg Anfaug View Post
If we're going to get technical, you should capitalize the first letter of your post =P But I'm on your side here.

Edit: Syn... are you hearing what you're saying here? The reason you change ELO brackets is because of personal skill. If your skill is higher then your ELO bracket, you will win more then 50% of the time, until your ELO reaches a level where you do win 50% of the time. Similarly, if it's lower, then you will lose more then 50% of the time. That's the entire point of the system. Its goal is to assign you a number that predicts how often you'll win. Only when that number is accurate will 50% be consistent.

As far as casinos go, take some advice from our friend Twisted Fate... "The house always wins". Fifty percent is not accurate in that example either.

Edit: Actually... your final line would be the case if ELO hell did exist, not if it didn't.

I understand that, and what you said is true if it were 1v1. If it is a 5v5 game and you had the player who decides to afk, then what? then your odds of winning are significantly lower. Ok, then next game the other team gets the bad player and the cycle repeats itself. You cant tell me that because I am a natural 1500 elo player, even if I get an afk team mate I should be able to carry everyone through.


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Sereg Anfaug

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10-24-2012

Lord, statistically you don't have four bad players on your team. If that happens, then no, you won't be able to carry them.

Communication is key, but statistically it's irrelevant. Some teams will have good communication, some won't. And even if you are better then the other players on your team and try to lead them, they may not listen, because they think they're better. Recently I had a jungle maokai who kept trying to baron, while the rest of us did the sensible thing and pushed towers and inhibs. Some people don't listen, some do. Seeing a name like Chaox will make them more inclined, so I'm sure that helped... but he probably also won his lane, and had good positioning in teamfights, and good map awareness. The five on the other team were probably alot closer to the skill level of the four on his, too, so it's not that he had to carry bad players against good players.

Syn, if you had the player who decides to AFK, then odds are, next time someone AFKs he'll be on the other team. Sometimes not... streaks happen, both bad and good. But overall, things will even out, and the only true variable is your own skill. If over the course of a large number of games you can't climb past a certain ELO... you belong there. I know you want to believe you're better then your ELO says you are. I sure as **** don't want to believe I'm as bad as 750. But... I am.


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GingerBeardMan

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10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereg Anfaug View Post
Lord, statistically you don't have four bad players on your team. If that happens, then no, you won't be able to carry them.

Communication is key, but statistically it's irrelevant. Some teams will have good communication, some won't. And even if you are better then the other players on your team and try to lead them, they may not listen, because they think they're better. Recently I had a jungle maokai who kept trying to baron, while the rest of us did the sensible thing and pushed towers and inhibs. Some people don't listen, some do. Seeing a name like Chaox will make them more inclined, so I'm sure that helped... but he probably also won his lane, and had good positioning in teamfights, and good map awareness. The five on the other team were probably alot closer to the skill level of the four on his, too, so it's not that he had to carry bad players against good players.

Syn, if you had the player who decides to AFK, then odds are, next time someone AFKs he'll be on the other team. Sometimes not... streaks happen, both bad and good. But overall, things will even out, and the only true variable is your own skill. If over the course of a large number of games you can't climb past a certain ELO... you belong there. I know you want to believe you're better then your ELO says you are. I sure as **** don't want to believe I'm as bad as 750. But... I am.

Chaox carried his team by telling them what to do when they had no clue or were making dumb decisions like trying to baron after acing a team when their inhib is down and the lane is pushed and you could just end it. He didn't carry his team by just out playing everyone, he outplayed his lane and won it sure but it's not like a 2200 player could come down to 1000 elo and 1v5 people.


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