Is there going to be any work on Kha'zix in Season 3?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Siky

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drex Greytalon View Post
See, I could play Olaf, Darius, Rengar, or ANY of those other champs, ****, even RENEKTON is more useful on a team comp than Kha'zix is, all because their itemization is better and their kits work more in conjunction with each other.
Funny fact, of all the champions you named, KZ is the only one that can't do anything when he builds tanky.

- Olaf regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Darius regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Rengar regardless of his build can detect stealth and has a snare.
- Renekton regardless of his build always has a stun.

Their builds don't inhibit their damage, they only enhance it. However the problem with Kha'Zix is that:

- KZ's damage is situational and he doesn't deal more damage than other champions with this restriction even when it's conditions are met.

* Rengar Q + Q damage = 150 (+1.0) + 130 (+2.5) = 280 (+3.5 per AD)
* KZ Isolated Q damage = 280 (+2.8 bonus AD)

That's a big problem. Don't tell me that Rengar has to use 2 Qs and have a Ferocity available to deal damage, he fights when he's ready and in a team fight, his damage downs targets faster than Kha'Zix can allowing for him to snowball the team fight in his favor. Not only this, but he also has an Armor and MR buff to help him survive which is important for any Melee champion that doesn't build tanky AND he has both a slow and a snare.

- Evolved Void Spike is an AOE poke that deals about 250 physical damage and 100 magic damage for 100 mana and it has a 35% slow for 2 seconds.

It's not bad, but the damage feels low just because it has a slow attached to it. I would argue that I would not shed a single tear if we lost the 35% slow and got something more meaningful like maybe more DAMAGE. I would even settle for something more outrageous, how about an Armor Debuff. I can already Leap like 800 range and my Ult applies my slow already because I don't use it for anything else, so why do I have a slow on this thing? What am I supposed to use it for?

- Why am I playing Kha'Zix over other champs?

Because he's cool as hell, but even though I get good scores and I bought his Mecha skin because it's dope, I still feel like I'm being shorthanded when it comes to team fights. If the rest of my team was doing average, I would still contribute the same amount to a team fight regardless of how fed I was if the enemy team didn't have players derping and getting caught out in the middle of nowhere by themselves.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Drex Greytalon

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Thanks for the input everyone!

Even you, jakab, I know you mean well and don't want another Rengar. But you have to understand, I just want a champion's kit to function as Riot intended it to function. That's where I'm coming from, and I don't think it does quite yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siky View Post
Funny fact, of all the champions you named, KZ is the only one that can't do anything when he builds tanky.

- Olaf regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Darius regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Rengar regardless of his build can detect stealth and has a snare.
- Renekton regardless of his build always has a stun.

Their builds don't inhibit their damage, they only enhance it. However the problem with Kha'Zix is that:

- KZ's damage is situational and he doesn't deal more damage than other champions with this restriction even when it's conditions are met.

* Rengar Q + Q damage = 150 (+1.0) + 130 (+2.5) = 280 (+3.5 per AD)
* KZ Isolated Q damage = 280 (+2.8 bonus AD)

That's a big problem. Don't tell me that Rengar has to use 2 Qs and have a Ferocity available to deal damage, he fights when he's ready and in a team fight, his damage downs targets faster than Kha'Zix can allowing for him to snowball the team fight in his favor. Not only this, but he also has an Armor and MR buff to help him survive which is important for any Melee champion that doesn't build tanky AND he has both a slow and a snare.

- Evolved Void Spike is an AOE poke that deals about 250 physical damage and 100 magic damage for 100 mana and it has a 35% slow for 2 seconds.

It's not bad, but the damage feels low just because it has a slow attached to it. I would argue that I would not shed a single tear if we lost the 35% slow and got something more meaningful like maybe more DAMAGE. I would even settle for something more outrageous, how about an Armor Debuff. I can already Leap like 800 range and my Ult applies my slow already because I don't use it for anything else, so why do I have a slow on this thing? What am I supposed to use it for?

- Why am I playing Kha'Zix over other champs?

Because he's cool as hell, but even though I get good scores and I bought his Mecha skin because it's dope, I still feel like I'm being shorthanded when it comes to team fights. If the rest of my team was doing average, I would still contribute the same amount to a team fight regardless of how fed I was if the enemy team didn't have players derping and getting caught out in the middle of nowhere by themselves.
May I have your children please? Somehow you said what I said with more depth and with less written. :P


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Drex Greytalon

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Red insight would be nice. May not happen but a man can dream. :/


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eyepop

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I find that the main problem that my team and I have with Kha'Zix is that he does nothing in a teamfight. He's great for coming along afterward and cleaning up if there are low-life people who are isolating themselves, but all his damage is on that isolated Q, and in a teamfight where you've got the tanks right on top of the carries, it's impossible to get that extra damage. I find that the only thing that I can do for teamfights is to throw in my evolves W every time it comes up to poke them down with my passive. Of course, after a minute of that I'm OOM and can't even do that.

I think that his kit would work if only he had a real ultimate. Right now it's just a way to proc his passive: it provides literally nothing else. A one-second stealth is Vayne-territory, and he can only use it twice over four seconds? Or, if you waste an evolution point on it (lol) then three seconds of stealth in seven seconds. Yaaaaay.

Someone will argue that "He doesn't get a powerful ult because his ultimate makes his basic attacks so much more powerful!" Okay, but the problem with that is that he was balanced around his evolved abilities: his W is only decent when evolved, his E becomes Trist's RJ when evolved, and his Q can finally do some real damage against non-isolated targets. What they ended up doing is making a champion who's entirely ineffective until lvl 16, and that's surely no reason to give him a completely worthless ultimate.

Let's compare his ultimate to Jayce's, why don't we? Final rank for both, Jayce receives 40 MS vs Kha's 40%, for 1.25 seconds vs 1 & then 1 again later seconds. Jayce also gets 35 bonus armor and magic resist if he switches into hammer, or reduces the enemy's armor and MR by 25%. AND his next attack in hammer stance deals 140 bonus damage, vs Kha dealing 220 * 2 extra damage from proccing his passive twice.

You might say that that actually sounds pretty fair, but Jayce's ult is on a 6 second timer! Kha has to wait another 80 seconds before he can deal his 440 damage. In that time, switching to hammer stance every 12 seconds, Jayce gets his 140 bonus damage 6 times, and if you take into account that Kha's ult takes 4 seconds to go on CD, deals it 7 times. 440 damage and 40% MS for 2 seconds vs 140*7 damage plus 40 MS for 1.25 * 7 = 980 damage and 8.75 seconds of extra MS. If you build Kha with ~390 MS, he gets 312 MS: Jayce gets 350 MS, without taking into account that Kha is gonna hit the MS ceiling and receive diminished returns.

All that to point out that Jayce's ultimate is superior, taking only damage and MS into account.

Or, we could compare him to his supposed nemesis, Rengar. Rengar's got 7 seconds of uninterrupted 30% MS on a 50 second CD and can see all enemy champs on the screen through FoW/stealth/bushes. He gets to charge his Q into an empowered Q. Damage-wise, he deals 150% of his AD (all of it, not just bonus like Kha's Q) and gets a 100% AS boost for 3 seconds. Let's calculate:
Item-less Rengar has 1.13 AS and 109 AD at lvl 18. So Q deals 164 damage, and he gets ~3 extra AAs, for 109 damage each, for a whooping 491 damage. It's ridiculous to do so, but I will anyway: Rengar also receives (assuming 390 MS again) 819 MS.

So Rengar's ult is far superior as well. Without taking the sight and CD or extra stealth into account: once more only comparing damage and MS.

Someone at Riot needs to realize this: Kha's ultimate is non-existent. I find that I never EVER use it except in futile attempts to escape or if I'm trying to close a gap created by a flash. If I want to proc his passive, I'm just gonna duck into some bushes to lose sight.


My, didn't realize just how terrible that ult is until I ran the numbers. o.o After doing so, I change my Kha-buff demands: he still needs W-cost lowered, and SOMETHING has to be done to that ult. I don't know, tack on some MR and Armor to make him get blown up less quickly. SOMETHING. Cuz even with his free week last rotation, I saw him played less than once a day.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

M3TASH33P

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siky View Post
Funny fact, of all the champions you named, KZ is the only one that can't do anything when he builds tanky.

- Olaf regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Darius regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Rengar regardless of his build can detect stealth and has a snare.
- Renekton regardless of his build always has a stun.

Their builds don't inhibit their damage, they only enhance it. However the problem with Kha'Zix is that:

- KZ's damage is situational and he doesn't deal more damage than other champions with this restriction even when it's conditions are met.

* Rengar Q + Q damage = 150 (+1.0) + 130 (+2.5) = 280 (+3.5 per AD)
* KZ Isolated Q damage = 280 (+2.8 bonus AD)

That's a big problem. Don't tell me that Rengar has to use 2 Qs and have a Ferocity available to deal damage, he fights when he's ready and in a team fight, his damage downs targets faster than Kha'Zix can allowing for him to snowball the team fight in his favor. Not only this, but he also has an Armor and MR buff to help him survive which is important for any Melee champion that doesn't build tanky AND he has both a slow and a snare.

- Evolved Void Spike is an AOE poke that deals about 250 physical damage and 100 magic damage for 100 mana and it has a 35% slow for 2 seconds.

It's not bad, but the damage feels low just because it has a slow attached to it. I would argue that I would not shed a single tear if we lost the 35% slow and got something more meaningful like maybe more DAMAGE. I would even settle for something more outrageous, how about an Armor Debuff. I can already Leap like 800 range and my Ult applies my slow already because I don't use it for anything else, so why do I have a slow on this thing? What am I supposed to use it for?

- Why am I playing Kha'Zix over other champs?

Because he's cool as hell, but even though I get good scores and I bought his Mecha skin because it's dope, I still feel like I'm being shorthanded when it comes to team fights. If the rest of my team was doing average, I would still contribute the same amount to a team fight regardless of how fed I was if the enemy team didn't have players derping and getting caught out in the middle of nowhere by themselves.
Pretty good points, I especially agree on the itemization. I really dont understand why those champs are allowed so much damage for pretty much pure tank items, in the long run they can deal more damage than kha while being able to soak more as well. One of the complaints i have is his base armor. For a champ made to jungle its pretty low. Only reason I can think why it is low is so that he cant win top lane to easy and snowball out of control.

All this talk about KZ made me wanna go play him XD, turned out pretty well.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Siky

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyepop View Post
My, didn't realize just how terrible that ult is until I ran the numbers. o.o After doing so, I change my Kha-buff demands: he still needs W-cost lowered, and SOMETHING has to be done to that ult. I don't know, tack on some MR and Armor to make him get blown up less quickly. SOMETHING. Cuz even with his free week last rotation, I saw him played less than once a day.
New R evolve if Riot doesn't want to make him tankier:

Stealth lasts 3 seconds instead of 1. Does not gain a 3rd Re-stealth. Is it worth it now? At least I can get the hell away if a tank with an Oracles isn't on top of me!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eyepop

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siky View Post
New R evolve if Riot doesn't want to make him tankier:

Stealth lasts 3 seconds instead of 1. Does not gain a 3rd Re-stealth. Is it worth it now? At least I can get the hell away if a tank with an Oracles isn't on top of me!
Well, with that he'd at least gain more MS than the other champions: 936.

What would be the point of evolving R, though? I mean, I know there isn't any now, and it's easier to dodge AoE spells with a 3-second window than a 1-second one, but I still wouldn't see evolving R as viable.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

jakab

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siky View Post
Funny fact, of all the champions you named, KZ is the only one that can't do anything when he builds tanky.

- Olaf regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Darius regardless of his build always does True Damage.
- Rengar regardless of his build can detect stealth and has a snare.
- Renekton regardless of his build always has a stun.

Their builds don't inhibit their damage, they only enhance it. However the problem with Kha'Zix is that:

- KZ's damage is situational and he doesn't deal more damage than other champions with this restriction even when it's conditions are met.

* Rengar Q + Q damage = 150 (+1.0) + 130 (+2.5) = 280 (+3.5 per AD)
* KZ Isolated Q damage = 280 (+2.8 bonus AD)

That's a big problem. Don't tell me that Rengar has to use 2 Qs and have a Ferocity available to deal damage, he fights when he's ready and in a team fight, his damage downs targets faster than Kha'Zix can allowing for him to snowball the team fight in his favor. Not only this, but he also has an Armor and MR buff to help him survive which is important for any Melee champion that doesn't build tanky AND he has both a slow and a snare.

- Evolved Void Spike is an AOE poke that deals about 250 physical damage and 100 magic damage for 100 mana and it has a 35% slow for 2 seconds.

It's not bad, but the damage feels low just because it has a slow attached to it. I would argue that I would not shed a single tear if we lost the 35% slow and got something more meaningful like maybe more DAMAGE. I would even settle for something more outrageous, how about an Armor Debuff. I can already Leap like 800 range and my Ult applies my slow already because I don't use it for anything else, so why do I have a slow on this thing? What am I supposed to use it for?

- Why am I playing Kha'Zix over other champs?

Because he's cool as hell, but even though I get good scores and I bought his Mecha skin because it's dope, I still feel like I'm being shorthanded when it comes to team fights. If the rest of my team was doing average, I would still contribute the same amount to a team fight regardless of how fed I was if the enemy team didn't have players derping and getting caught out in the middle of nowhere by themselves.
The problem here is that you're comparing KZ with a champion most of the community consider overpowered. And even so, their kits are very comparable.

Damage: You didn't take into account any other abilities in your damage comparison. KZ has AD scaling on all his abilities except his passive. KZ has a lower cooldown on his Q while Rengar gets a 3 second AS buff on his. All things considered, both their burst and sustained damage are very similar. KZ might even have the advantage once Rengar's empowered Q gets a ratio nerf.

Mobility: No question here, KZ has a longer range leap that refreshes on kills and assists and isn't as situational as Rengar's.

Sustain: Rengar gets a 15% heal and doesn't have to worry about mana.

CC: Both have ranged slows, with Rengar having higher values on his. He also has a 1 second root, but that requires him to sacrifice the damage from an empowered Q.

Stealth: Okay, Rengar's 7 second stealth is kind of silly and KZ's pales a bit in comparison. However with a bit of skill and trickery you can definitely make some big plays happen with this ability.

After we get nerfs to Rengar, I think the strength of these two champions is going to be very similar. I understand that KZ's W and R feel a bit lackluster right now, but that is to make up for how strong his Q and E are. Maybe shifting a bit of power from those abilities to his W and R would make the champion "feel" better, but I still believe it's way too early to be making a definitive judgement on Kha'Zix.

Now if we're talking straight up buffs, there's NO WAY he deserves them while champions like Yi, Tryn, Nasus, Trundle, etc. are left in their current state.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eyepop

Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakab View Post
Now if we're talking straight up buffs, there's NO WAY he deserves them while champions like Yi, Tryn, Nasus, Trundle, etc. are left in their current state.
Hmmm, I don't know: look on the win % charts on LoLKing and you'll find that Kha is pretty even with those guys.

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region...te&range=daily

Especially interesting because normals/low ranked is where assassins do best, where there's a lack of communication and teamwork in general to shut them down.

Edit: links didn't work correctly for whatever reason, removed one for redundancy


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

mr underhilI

Senior Member

10-23-2012

i bought my khazix with the cool skin, played him for 5 games week 1.

played him for 3 games on week 2

on week 3 i did an aram on him just to play him, since i kept losing my normal/ranked games playing him.

now i dont play him at all, i go jungle amumu or top daruis/shen/yorik

hes going to be sejuani number 2 if riot doesnt do something about him fast.