What is your stance on flashing over the wall to quickly destroy the enemy nexus?

I believe it should be removed from the game. 18 20.45%
I find it distasteful, but also to be a valid tactic. 19 21.59%
It's there and I don't care one way or the other. 7 7.95%
I find it a valid move, and don't see what the problem is. 41 46.59%
I think it's very necessary and support it's usage in any way. 20 22.73%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

Is this a generally accepted strategy, or generally disliked?

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XxChrystarxX

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Member

10-20-2012

I personally find flashing over the wall to kill the enemy Nexus (speaking about 3v3 obviously) to be a distasteful, annoying, and pathetically desperate way of saying "I cant STAND to lose!"

Normally, I understand. You don't want to spend an hour and a half fighting a team that's just turtled up in their base. This i supposed is where I draw the line. In a close game like the one I just had, I see it as less of a "I just want to play a different game already" and more of a "I'm a 12 year old with a need to feel accomplished." sort of play.

My example here will be a game I just got done playing about 15 minutes ago. My team: Jarvan IV, Morgana, Hecarim. Their team: Tryndamere, Gangplank, Volibear.

For the first 18 minutes or so of this game, we slowly started losing. They got 2 dragons, and Tryndamere got a little fed at 7/4/5. They took both our first turrets, and started to roam around as a team. I figured by this point, since we had not killed any of their turrets, that we would be losing shortly. But then, GP started making a lot of mistakes, and we ate up the chance to get back in the game. By the end of the 50 minute game, we were winning pretty much every single team fight with good focus, timing, and coordination, which is what this game is supposed to be all about.

We got 3 turrets and an inhibitor down, while we were down to our last turret. We also managed to scrape 2 dragon kills out from under them, and I as Jarvan IV ended up being 15/5/16. Morgana was I believe in the ballpark of 7/10/13, and Hecarim was more around 11/7/8. We started to pick up momentum, and managed to ace their team twice while only Morgana would die from all the focus she received. This is how we managed to start making a comeback and took down their inhibitor.

Here's where it gets annoying. While we were pushing the last time, our last turret was destroyed. No big deal, just gonna recall, rinse the base since the inhibs are back up, and wait for the next team fight. Well, after this initial rinse of the minions piled around the nexus, Hecarim and Morg stayed in the base while I snuck out for another dragon to further push us toward full builds and a victory. This is when Tryndamere jumped over the wall and killed our nexus in about 10 seconds flat.

To me personally, this is bull. As noted in the leading statement, I understand not wanting to prolong games and therefore performing this tactic. I understand that a lot of people do it, and we should have expected it.

TL : DR My question to the LoL community right now however is this; do you believe this tactic of flashing over the nexus wall, ]as a general tactic, NOT as a way to end an obvious win in the case of turtling enemies, to be a valid move, that should be performed at any point in time that it is possible, or do you believe it should be removed from the game by making the wall by the nexus impassable by flashes and/or flash related moves? Do you think it is more needed than it is annoying? Because really, it seems a little too easy for my liking. (All you need is a lvl 18 Trynd with flash, life steal, some attack speed and an Infinity Edge to do the job safely. Spin over, attack till you have to get out, flash back out. Q to heal, jungle, woohoo you have half health! Spin back and finish it up.)

If you have another idea, please, comment below and let's discuss this further.


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Hi Guys Danger

Senior Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxChrystarxX View Post
I personally find flashing over the wall to kill the enemy Nexus (speaking about 3v3 obviously) to be a distasteful, annoying, and pathetically desperate way of saying "I cant STAND to lose!"

Normally, I understand. You don't want to spend an hour and a half fighting a team that's just turtled up in their base. This i supposed is where I draw the line. In a close game like the one I just had, I see it as less of a "I just want to play a different game already" and more of a "I'm a 12 year old with a need to feel accomplished." sort of play.

My example here will be a game I just got done playing about 15 minutes ago. My team: Jarvan IV, Morgana, Hecarim. Their team: Tryndamere, Gangplank, Volibear.

For the first 18 minutes or so of this game, we slowly started losing. They got 2 dragons, and Tryndamere got a little fed at 7/4/5. They took both our first turrets, and started to roam around as a team. I figured by this point, since we had not killed any of their turrets, that we would be losing shortly. But then, GP started making a lot of mistakes, and we ate up the chance to get back in the game. By the end of the 50 minute game, we were winning pretty much every single team fight with good focus, timing, and coordination, which is what this game is supposed to be all about.

We got 3 turrets and an inhibitor down, while we were down to our last turret. We also managed to scrape 2 dragon kills out from under them, and I as Jarvan IV ended up being 15/5/16. Morgana was I believe in the ballpark of 7/10/13, and Hecarim was more around 11/7/8. We started to pick up momentum, and managed to ace their team twice while only Morgana would die from all the focus she received. This is how we managed to start making a comeback and took down their inhibitor.

Here's where it gets annoying. While we were pushing the last time, our last turret was destroyed. No big deal, just gonna recall, rinse the base since the inhibs are back up, and wait for the next team fight. Well, after this initial rinse of the minions piled around the nexus, Hecarim and Morg stayed in the base while I snuck out for another dragon to further push us toward full builds and a victory. This is when Tryndamere jumped over the wall and killed our nexus in about 10 seconds flat.

To me personally, this is bull. As noted in the leading statement, I understand not wanting to prolong games and therefore performing this tactic. I understand that a lot of people do it, and we should have expected it.

TL : DR My question to the LoL community right now however is this; do you believe this tactic of flashing over the nexus wall, ]as a general tactic, NOT as a way to end an obvious win in the case of turtling enemies, to be a valid move, that should be performed at any point in time that it is possible, or do you believe it should be removed from the game by making the wall by the nexus impassable by flashes and/or flash related moves? Do you think it is more needed than it is annoying? Because really, it seems a little too easy for my liking. (All you need is a lvl 18 Trynd with flash, life steal, some attack speed and an Infinity Edge to do the job safely. Spin over, attack till you have to get out, flash back out. Q to heal, jungle, woohoo you have half health! Spin back and finish it up.)

If you have another idea, please, comment below and let's discuss this further.
Sorry but if you're not guarding your base then they don't need to flash in.. and if you are you should notice right away that someones trying to backdoor it... and if you don't then you lack the map awareness you'll desperately need in the new 3s.


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Twixiee

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Senior Member

10-20-2012

I'll do it to win, since the enemy can and will just as easily do the same to me if given the chance. And i'll never be bitter about it happening to me, or insult the other team.. But I don't really like that it's possible, and wouldn't mind seeing it become impossible.


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XxChrystarxX

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Member

10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Guys Danger View Post
Sorry but if you're not guarding your base then they don't need to flash in.. and if you are you should notice right away that someones trying to backdoor it... and if you don't then you lack the map awareness you'll desperately need in the new 3s.
I left both my team mates to guard the base, and each was standing behind an inhibitor to keep the lanes from being pushed, and our remaining inhibitor from being destroyed, while I was already at dragon. So what am I supposed to do, one person at each inhib and on by the base, just waiting for the opposing team to come at us? That's why so many people hate turtling in the first place. It makes long, slow, painfully uninteresting games.

Secondly, we did notice right away. That's the problem. Once the game hits the point where all your turrets are down and it's only your nexus left there, exposed, it doesn't matter how ready you are when that 16 kill 12 assist tryndamere with 250 cs pops over that wall. If you're not all there waiting for him, he's gonna rip it up and there's nothing you can do about it. His ult prevents you from killing him, and his spinning slash can grant him an escape just as quickly as he came.

And thirdly, this is an off topic reply. I clearly stated that this was not about our loss, it's about the use of the tactic itself. I couldn't care less if I get outplayed or lose. What bothers me, is I was outplaying the enemy team, and simply because they had that early lead, they used a tactic that is practically unblockable due to the specific champion they used to perform it. So basically, all you need is a tryndamere or someone who can DPS like mad to win in 3v3s with an early lead.

Games are about having fun. That's not a fun element to have in a game that is supposed to reward all your cumulative successes throughout the game, not just the first 20 minutes.

"He got 5 kills early game, and took 2 of your towers? Sucks for you, your 10 late game kills don't matter." This is a problem. There should NEVER be such an easy way to win in ANY competitive game. "Just flash over here, and as long as you're tryndamere and have at least 200 damage and 1.5 atk speed, we win!"


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Fillinupcups

Junior Member

10-20-2012

you shouldn't have been trying to get dragon while you had a bare nexus. it's your teams fault you were in that position in the first place. also, you know you're playing against a trynd, but you decide to leave the nexus alone? i believe you said the game is all about good focus, timing, and coordination. the game is about winning. if you're winning every team fight, and continue to do so, do you expect the enemy team to keep team fighting you? no, they had to adapt to the situation. they couldn't win team fights any longer, so they had to catch you off guard and take the nexus while they still could. it's not anything but poor gameplay on your teams part for letting it get to that point and allowing it to happen.


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Trakzful

Senior Member

10-20-2012

It is a tactic that helps you win, stop mentally limiting yourself from using what you consider "cheap tactics"

"cheap tactics" won the American revolution, "cheap tactics" are what made the Spartans able to hold off the Persian army, without "cheap tactics" ninjutsu wouldn't exist, "cheap tactics" are dropping nuclear bombs on a predominantly civilian population to end a war

Stop being butthurt because someone beat you with something you deem to be "unfair". Unless someone was hacking or exploiting they outplayed you. Play...To...Win


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XxChrystarxX

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Member

10-20-2012

I have no idea why every post I make gets a S!#@ ton of replies about "stop whining, do better". I'm not complaining. I will f*%#ing QUOTE myself here.

"My question to the LoL community right now however is this; do you believe this tactic of flashing over the nexus wall, ]as a general tactic, NOT as a way to end an obvious win in the case of turtling enemies, to be a valid move, that should be performed at any point in time that it is possible, or do you believe it should be removed from the game by making the wall by the nexus impassable by flashes and/or flash related moves?"

It is a question, and I'm sick and tired of my threads being attacked by people who CLEARLY don't understand the idea of READING before they start TYPING. Read the context, read the QUESTION, and stop acting like I'm QQing here. To quote myself again,

"I couldn't care less if I get outplayed or lose. What bothers me, is I was outplaying the enemy team, and simply because they had that early lead, they used a tactic that is practically unblockable due to the specific champion they used to perform it."

So I will reiterate once more. It's not about me losing, it's about the wall needing to be an actual boundary. Me and my team were coming back from a loss, and the only way to come back from something like that is to get an upper hand. So why would it make sense to give a defending team 3 points to protect, when there are only 3 people on the team? That means either they leave themselves open to be beaten, or they stand and wait by turtling and hoping for the best. Seeing how turtling was such a hated thing, in the upcoming patch, they are trying to eliminate turtling completely, which means that now you can't defend your base, and you can't leave your base to counterattack because again, it means you lose. It doesn't matter that we had twice their champion kills and in general outplayed them for the last 15 minutes of the game, because all it took was 1 person to say screw it I'm bored and win it for them.

From that, I will summarize. My problem is not that I lost. My problem here is that this tactic is nearly impossible to deflect, unless you have already decided to sit in your base and die, in which case, you have a slim chance to stop this player. A simple solution? Make the wall impassable by flash or flash-related abilities. This will force players to actually outplay their enemies, instead of just jump behind them and slam their face into their keyboards while they win. "Point over wall, press F, right click and wait" should NEVER beat a 3 man team working hard and succeeding to make a comeback. A comeback signifies an adaptation of the way these players are acting and participating that improves their playing ability and shows great flexibility. Make the enemy team show that they deserve it because they are more skilled or more flexible, not because they have a flash.


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Trakzful

Senior Member

10-20-2012

You got outplayed, it is as simple as that. There is an abundance of counterplay to backdooring, and it starts with a single ward.

Quote:
I couldn't care less if I get outplayed or lose. What bothers me, is I was outplaying the enemy team, and simply because they had that early lead
Does not compute


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MaximusEvil

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Senior Member

10-20-2012

I find Tryndamere, Master Yi, and Shaco very good at this backdoor stragety, and can be countered by simply warding both brushes outside of bases, and one just outside the jungle choke point by your nexus wall. I've had numerous Tryns/Yis/Shacos try this, yet none are very successfull with a bit of proper warding, and planning.


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XxChrystarxX

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10-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakzful View Post
You got outplayed, it is as simple as that. There is an abundance of counterplay to backdooring, and it starts with a single ward.



Does not compute
It's just like it says. They had an early lead, pushed us back to inhibitors, and then we started to outplay them. We had less gold and were lower leveled, and we were still managing to pull back to an even level as them. We evened the playing field, and it didn't matter because of this one person on their team.

Perhaps a ward could have prevented this loss, but this isn't about my loss. This is about the tactic itself. I doubt a ward would have been enough to stop him. Even if we had all three been there, it would have been a close battle to stay in the game. Considering he had enough atk speed and damage to destroy the nexus in about 10 seconds, that's 5 seconds of attacking from his ult where we couldn't have done anything to stop him, and another 5-10 where we would be noticing him running at it (if the ward had been placed) and try to intercept him. That's 5 seconds to kill him, and 5 seconds of praying he can't kill it before his ult wears off.


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