Twisted Dominionline

First Riot Post
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Para

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Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cretinok View Post
I personally cant stand Dominion.

I do like Sommoners Rift, but it can be frustrating at times because of the meta restricting your choices. Sometimes its fun to mix things up and just have fun. But no, unless you have a premade team, the team compositions are always the same and leaves no room for creative strategies. Picking anything other than what your supposed to do will result in either massive **** talk or que dodging.

Thats why I like Twisted Treeline. Where I can play with a couple friends and create interesting teams that synergize well. These changes sound terrible and will only result in me playing solely Summoners Rift and eventually will stop playing all together from boredom.

Riot, I understand that a lot of work went into this new map, but please do us all a fovor and add it as a stand alone map and leave TT as it is.
.. you know the previous TT generally favoured bruisers way more than all other champions.


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rutters

Junior Member

10-23-2012

yo OK so I'm not a big forum poster and I'm probably gonna get **** for defending dominion but i play it a lot and enjoy it.
Also would like to note that i haven't played the new map at all but i have been reading forum feedback just to get a feel for the community reaction.
Dominion is a lot different from SR for many reasons and a lot of SR players don't like that and that's cool i happen to like both SR for having a nice established meta and a relaxing farm phase and dominion for its fast paced strat and easily broken meta that makes each game have possibilities to be much much different from the last
What im geting from reading the forum is a lot of strong hatred for the lack of wards and speed shrines (not going to comment on alter capturing mechanics because i haven't seen it myself) and all i want to say is keep an open mind if you mainly play SR. yes teemo with a hextech can be filthy and ima go ahead and say i have a sneaking suspicion mao is gonna break into this meta like he did in dominion but having some dominion like aspects(that i doubt will make the map feel anything like dominion but i wont say for certain till i see them) is not the worst thing and even though they might be over powered right now think about how they were intended to effect potential game play not weather or not its like dominion but how it will effect the evolving meta

these are just my thoughts take from it what you will and remember i haven't played the map at all but try to keep an open mind is all


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Entropic Thought

Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
Hai guys.

I'm not going to try and tell you how you should think or what to feel about the reworked TT. I'm a high elo dominion player and also diamond in 3s. I've dedicated a lot of time over the last few months to learning and becoming good at our non-SR game modes. I'm not a designer or on either the dominion or TT team, but I can tell you as a player that the new mode really doesn't feel like dominion to me (and I LOVE dominion).

Are there a lot of things that still aren't perfect about the new TT? Sure. That's why we're releasing this as a beta. We read all of your comments on here and really do value your feedback. Change is hard and I know there will be a lot of knee-jerk reactions to the new changes. People see the altars and immediately think of them as capture and hold points like Dominion when really the gamemode doesn't feel anything like Dominion (to me, at least - like I said I don't want to tell you what you should think).

That said, posts like this one are extremely constructive and allow us to analyze what you guys like and don't like about the new mode. I know it's tempting to post things like "omg the new map mode sucks it's dominion/TT hybrid" but those really aren't constructive and don't engage us in conversation.

Instead, try to specifically outline what mechanics and changes make you feel that way. This post does a great job of approaching the specific elements that the OP doesn't like yet. Obviously, the map isn't even out on Live yet but as you guys have a chance to play it more, try to be constructive with feedback! The OP's post is a good example of what we're looking for ^_^
Copypasta from an earlier post of mine:

Let me start this post saying that I've played thousands (literally) of 3v3 games, and I play the mode almost exclusively. I played ranked to about 1650 and then got bored, but I play with and against the best on a routine basis. After logging onto the PBE and playing on the new Twisted Treeline, I decided to write this post.

This is my feedback of old vs. new.

The Jungle

I was a dedicated jungler for my entire time playing 3v3. Every good player knows the role is necessary, and that when played right often decides the entire game. Here are my thoughts:

Pros:
- Finally updated camps to be easier and give mana/health for killing (good for widening viable jungler pool)
- No more randomization leading to cases of imbalance (consistent jungle = balanced jungle)
- More difficult boss makes early cheese 'Dragon'ing much less viable
- Vilemaw more easily secured than Dragon when in a dominant position (now, you must be pushing out into lane to even have vision of Vilemaw as opposed to dragon where you had 3 brushes right next door to threaten even a massively ahead team from)

Cons:
- New jungle route is EXTREMELY boring (seriously...walk in a triangle and kill camps, repeat)
- No buffs (new jungler role will just be for farming and gank/countergank instead of securing valuable buffs)
- Layout makes jungle fights awkward (you can randomly lose vision of champions, the altar being blocked on the sides makes maneuvering needlessly difficult)
- Speed shrine and lack of wards makes ganking too easy and too difficult to counter (self-explanatory)
- Simplicity of the jungle area makes fights less exciting (less opportunities for brush juking, kiting, etc. and lowers the impact of player skill)

SUGGESTIONS:
- Add more terrain/brush within the jungle to make fights more interesting
- Remove speed shrine and replace it with old Grez red buff (seriously, this ain't dominion - a speed shrine means ganks are easy always, red buff adds a valuable objective that must be contested for a better gank success chance)
- Add more incentive for invading enemy jungle (right now, you can just stay in your own little triangle jungle and farm your camps with ~10 second time between full clears - there's no incentive for invading and creating awesome team fights)
- Allow wards to be purchased (wards being unavailable makes the map extremely passive - wards are what allow for aggressive plays, not fog of war)


The Layout

Pros:
- Points mentioned in jungle relating to accessibility of new Dragon
- Wall between nexus and summoner platform (no more gimmicky super minion pulls to stall a game for ages)
- Thicker wall to nexus (no more gimmicky backdoor attempts after getting nexus tower)
- Thicker walls between lane/jungle (makes more champions viable, as blinks don't have such a huge impact - even non-blink champions can be viable)

Cons:
- Less playable area on the map stemming (from removal of top jungle and thicker walls)
- Lack of wards combined with speed shrine and brush placement makes ganking too easy and mandates extremely passive play (for good players, of course bad players might be extremely aggressive)
- Fewer objectives to contest and all are more difficult to contest (means that games will have less action and more passive farming)
- Too easy to just push top lane to deny vision of vilemaw
- Blink champions now less viable because very few walls are thin enough to dash through, and movespeed champions (e.g. Hecarim/Blitzcrank/Teemo) are now disproportionately strong

SUGGESTIONS:
- Open up vilemaw pit or the entrances to it to be a bigger area for fighting
- Remove speed shrine (replace with old red buff as aforementioned) and allow wards to be used
- Remove walls on the sides of capturable altars (opens up more usable space for jungle fights and removes the awkward vision impediment created by these walls)


The Items

Pros:
- Greater variety allows more champions to be viable (especially options for casters to deal with HP stacking tanks)
- Addition of AD/Arpen/CDR/Spellvamp item for AD casters
- No more warmog's
- Better option than Executioner's Calling to provide grievous wound
- More useful elixirs to purchase (blue buff on demand and tower push steroid to end stalemates)

Cons:
- Numbers on new items may not be balanced appropriately
- No wards (maybe this was just an oversight related to using Dominion as the baseline format for this new map?)
- Vision granting items (e.g. hex sweeper/new wriggle's) insufficient for map awareness

SUGGESTIONS:
- This element of new TT was definitely the best thought-out and executed (besides the lack of wards, obviously) of the changes; props.
- Wards, seriously. If you want an aggressive map you need wards - without them you just get unending passivity
- Look carefully at cost/stat ratio and active strength on items to balance cost vs. effective benefit


I love Twisted Treeline. As numerous as the problems were with the old Twisted Treeline map though, this new one has even more. As it currently stands, the old Twisted Treeline is, in my opinion as a long-time player and someone who understands its meta/strategy, still the superior map.

By looking carefully at the Cons and solving the problems they create, this new map could even surpass the old Twisted Treeline as the go-to map for Champion vs. Champion focused high-pace combat.


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Kari Arisu

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Senior Member

10-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
Hai guys.

I'm not going to try and tell you how you should think or what to feel about the reworked TT. I'm a high elo dominion player and also diamond in 3s. I've dedicated a lot of time over the last few months to learning and becoming good at our non-SR game modes. I'm not a designer or on either the dominion or TT team, but I can tell you as a player that the new mode really doesn't feel like dominion to me (and I LOVE dominion).

Are there a lot of things that still aren't perfect about the new TT? Sure. That's why we're releasing this as a beta. We read all of your comments on here and really do value your feedback. Change is hard and I know there will be a lot of knee-jerk reactions to the new changes. People see the altars and immediately think of them as capture and hold points like Dominion when really the gamemode doesn't feel anything like Dominion (to me, at least - like I said I don't want to tell you what you should think).

That said, posts like this one are extremely constructive and allow us to analyze what you guys like and don't like about the new mode. I know it's tempting to post things like "omg the new map mode sucks it's dominion/TT hybrid" but those really aren't constructive and don't engage us in conversation.

Instead, try to specifically outline what mechanics and changes make you feel that way. This post does a great job of approaching the specific elements that the OP doesn't like yet. Obviously, the map isn't even out on Live yet but as you guys have a chance to play it more, try to be constructive with feedback! The OP's post is a good example of what we're looking for ^_^
It's not that TT = Dominion Clone.
It's that alters are the same objective within another map. Capturing an alter is similar to capturing a point. You just do it for buffs rather than a requirement for winning.

Twisted Treeline is supposed to be more like a 3v3 version of Summoner's Rift -- and the developers are trying to make it more unique.
Altars are not a normal thing in League of Legends. There's nothing like it in SR. There's a similar function in Dominion. People who play 3v3s do not want it.

Personally, I'd rather see more objectives like the old Lizard buff. [Except, maybe a different buff.] However...the map design you currently have does not allow for good objective positioning. Removing Altars would pretty much require you guys to redesign the map to better position another feature.

TL;DR We want the 3v3 map to be a simple, specialized version of Summoner's Rift.
Specialized items are neat. Different buffs are neat. These are all normal things. Altars...have no place in any game mode.


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Shentok

Senior Member

10-23-2012

I agree with the original poster. I started this game shortly after Twisted Treeline was released, so I do have a bias on the new version. I like the new layout a lot. As the poster has stated, it feels that everything above the top lane doesn't seem to fit well and removes tactics that were previously viable. It feels like a stop of flow to the game when I capture altars when I'd rather be looking for a team fight, push, or contest for a buff control. The lack of buffs other than Vilemaw and the double altar control feels like there is less diversity in neutral buffs. I was never a fan of the speed shrines in dominion because of the awkward effect they felt for me when I used them. I'm fine without the wards since it is a smaller map, but it does make champions like Teemo and dashing champions more powerful without any tradeoffs to that power. I do hope that when the new Twisted Treeline goes live that the altars and the speed shrine won't be present and something more deserving of the map will be there instead. I understand that a lot of people harping on the altars is a knee-jerk reaction as people have been putting it, but I also feel that Riot has too much pride in their design to admit that it's not a popular choice among a lot of Twisted Treeline enthusiasts compared to other options that could've been implemented.


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Nicksiren

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Senior Member

10-24-2012

Thanks for the feedback everyone! Finally got a red to post here Along with other things, I agree with the idea of replacing the speed shrine with the red lizard buff or a different buff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
Hai guys.

I'm not going to try and tell you how you should think or what to feel about the reworked TT. I'm a high elo dominion player and also diamond in 3s. I've dedicated a lot of time over the last few months to learning and becoming good at our non-SR game modes. I'm not a designer or on either the dominion or TT team, but I can tell you as a player that the new mode really doesn't feel like dominion to me (and I LOVE dominion).

Are there a lot of things that still aren't perfect about the new TT? Sure. That's why we're releasing this as a beta. We read all of your comments on here and really do value your feedback. Change is hard and I know there will be a lot of knee-jerk reactions to the new changes. People see the altars and immediately think of them as capture and hold points like Dominion when really the gamemode doesn't feel anything like Dominion (to me, at least - like I said I don't want to tell you what you should think).

That said, posts like this one are extremely constructive and allow us to analyze what you guys like and don't like about the new mode. I know it's tempting to post things like "omg the new map mode sucks it's dominion/TT hybrid" but those really aren't constructive and don't engage us in conversation.

Instead, try to specifically outline what mechanics and changes make you feel that way. This post does a great job of approaching the specific elements that the OP doesn't like yet. Obviously, the map isn't even out on Live yet but as you guys have a chance to play it more, try to be constructive with feedback! The OP's post is a good example of what we're looking for ^_^
Hai Vesh, thanks for bringing some Riotness to the thread. I would just like to reiterate that it's not just that the new TT feels like Dominion, it's that the changes take the focus AWAY from what made TT so fun in the past. This in turn creates the feel of a completely different game mode, which is odd considering Riot is "remaking" Twisted Treeline.


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innervation

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggris View Post
Starting gold: Increases level 1 variety/choice, pushes you towards engagement vs farming (TT is supposed to be about engagement over farming).

Shrines: Old TT buffs mostly require champs with a wriggles build to take the buffs (which limits viable champion selection since you only have 3 members per team). By making the buff a point hold mechanic you increase viability of other champs and builds.

No Wards: Wards decrease engagement/skirmishes by increasing map awareness. Additionally in a small map like TT with only a few viable ward spots it just becomes a game of "who is the last person to drop a pink ward down" for vision. With no ward the focus is a lot less on passive farming in a lane and a greater focus on moving around for engagement/skirmishes/objectives.

The other changes I don't think you had a problem with so I won't mention them here.
This is so true.


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VIOLENTxSHINOBI

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Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by innervation View Post
This is so true.
The idea behind it sounds true and on paper it looks true, however the way it has played out so far has been less than stellar from what I have seen and it has been recieved like AIDS.

Sounds legit.


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innervation

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Which part?

In addition to what Goggris wrote about starting gold, this change also increases champion diversity by giving mages the tools they need to farm in lane while being durable / speedy (boots cloth pots // d ring cloth pot // d ring hp pots, etc)

While shrines do have negatives, nothing he wrote was untrue.

Wards I agree with 1000%. My team won so many dragons > games by just buying more pink wards, and being the second / fourth / sixth to place them. I'm a little worried this will make sight items mandatory, but it's a trade I think I'm willing to make.


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Noxious Seraph

Senior Member

10-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
Hai guys.

I'm not going to try and tell you how you should think or what to feel about the reworked TT. I'm a high elo dominion player and also diamond in 3s. I've dedicated a lot of time over the last few months to learning and becoming good at our non-SR game modes. I'm not a designer or on either the dominion or TT team, but I can tell you as a player that the new mode really doesn't feel like dominion to me (and I LOVE dominion).

Are there a lot of things that still aren't perfect about the new TT? Sure. That's why we're releasing this as a beta. We read all of your comments on here and really do value your feedback. Change is hard and I know there will be a lot of knee-jerk reactions to the new changes. People see the altars and immediately think of them as capture and hold points like Dominion when really the gamemode doesn't feel anything like Dominion (to me, at least - like I said I don't want to tell you what you should think).

That said, posts like this one are extremely constructive and allow us to analyze what you guys like and don't like about the new mode. I know it's tempting to post things like "omg the new map mode sucks it's dominion/TT hybrid" but those really aren't constructive and don't engage us in conversation.

Instead, try to specifically outline what mechanics and changes make you feel that way. This post does a great job of approaching the specific elements that the OP doesn't like yet. Obviously, the map isn't even out on Live yet but as you guys have a chance to play it more, try to be constructive with feedback! The OP's post is a good example of what we're looking for ^_^

I agree with OP on most parts, The design team changed the map so prevent turtle play styles for 30 minutes and making a comeback. However, no wards encourages this because everyone will have to play defensive. More people will pick/ban teemo due to the vision. Lee sin, jax and katarina are indirectly nerfed due to this.


Wards is a huge thing. Maybe not on a map like dominion with such a large amount of vision but the new twisted treeline has no vision except for the lanes. I'm a huge fan of twisted treeline and I welcome the change and like 99% of things about the change

BUT.... Disabled wards is enough to make me not play the map. It will never be competitive without wards.