Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


DFG Nerf Counter Productive for Dominion Balance?

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AndersMMO

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Hi guys, I was reading over the Shadow Isles Patch Preview and was a tad concerned when I was reading about the DFG nerf thinking that it may have been taking away one of Dom AP's only weapons against late game tankyderps like jar4, jax, jayce, wukong, etc.

That concern led to this analysis;

[all calculations are done assuming full pen for simplicity of baseline information in a vacuum]

Essentially, what their doing is nerfing the base damage on DFG's active, reducing the stats given by DFG, and increasing the scaling of the active.

The way I see it new DFG will probably look something like

Deathfire Grasp - 2600g
+70 AP
Unique: 10% CDR
Unique Active: Deals magic damage to target champion equal to 20% of their current health (+5% per 100 ability power) with a minimum of 200 damage. 1 minute cooldown. (750 range)

Effectively, the DFG nerf is going to equate to:

- minus 0-15% CDR (I'm completely at a loss on this one, the CDR is the one area I think might not get hit at all, but also might get completely removed, or could just be brought down to 10-12%)

- minus 10 to 15 AP (I doubt Riot would be so bold as to bring it below the component's cumulative AP (65) and a relistic presumption is 70, this translates to .4%-.6% worth of Active Damage for the item in a vacuum)

- minus 5% damage on active (I SERIOUSLY doubt that Riot would be foolish enough to nerf the flat damage in any way other than this, the 5% nerf is reasonable but doesn't make the item gold inefficient)

- add 1% damage per 100 AP to the ratio on active (If they reduce the active base by 5% the only rational thing to do would be to allot a +1%/100 to the ratio, anything above may threaten to make DFG stronger than it was before and anything below makes DFG a skeleton of what it once was)

This means that on a character like Evelynn, who, when they initally buy their DFG should be floating in the 125 AP range (DFG included). The DFG nuke is being reduced from what was once a 30% nuke to an ~ 26% nuke. However, late game around 2nd and 3rd items when they would be floating closer to the 250 AP range, the DFG nuke is being taken from a 35% nuke to an ~ 32.5% nuke.

In Layman's terms, the DFG nerf means that for champions who first item DFG (post guise or ring), they are looking at an at most 4% HP deficit in burst damage from the old DFG (at most 5% if you also want to weigh in lost damage from the 10AP lost when using other skills), this means that in a worst case scenario APs are looking at a 200 dmg loss against the tankiest of champions.

All that said, I think the nerf is much more realistic then I initially had thought. More or less APs are going to have to kite for 1 more skill, or 2 more autos in order to lock out previously attainable kills (assuming they weren't overkilling already which was the case in many situations when full-bursting).

DFG nerf? Dominion Approved.

If you have any questions concerning my analysis, flaws to point out, comments, or opinions I'd love to answer them!

Thanks,
CnD_Ânders


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FOODFOOD

Senior Member

10-18-2012

I honestly don't remember the last time I bought DFG on an AP champ in Dominion...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AndersMMO

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
FOODFOOD:
I honestly don't remember the last time I bought DFG on an AP champ in Dominion...


Then you don't play assassins much and didn't know about pre nerf Eve.

Pre-nerf Eve I went 12-2 for W/L DFG first item.

APs are so vastly behind tankyderps right now that in High Elo Dom you HAVE to either run full nuke assassin with DFG/maximized burst, or you have to build bruiserAP.

IE. HaIfHearted's Bruiser Brand, the efficacy of Lulu due to her inherent tankiness, DFG Eve, DFG Fizz, Bruiser Swain, DFG Teemo...

The evidence is definately there, I main AP so my sampling pool might be a bit more extensive then yours or our Elos may differ enough to bring to light a build discrepancy.

I'm +62 or +63 wins right now out of just over 300, so I'm floating around 60% net win rate thus my Elo is pretty far up there. I que into DDers on a nearly nonstop basis and it's rare to not have 10 revives. Personally, I see a DFG at least every other game usually on Teemo, Eve, or Fizz.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FOODFOOD

Senior Member

10-18-2012

I guess I just don't play the right ones. I play a lot of Katarina, Leblanc, Kennen, Karma, Nidalee & Rumble, and I usually get Haunting Guise, Sweeper, then mostly Tanky AP items (Rylais, Abyssal). Getting DFG usually just sets me back too far.
Runes/Masteries + Sweeper is typically enough CDR for me (except for Karma, I get FH as well), and I've never really had a problem dealing enough damage. Sitting at about +50 W/L in almost 500 games.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AndersMMO

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
FOODFOOD:
I guess I just don't play the right ones. I play a lot of Katarina, Leblanc, Kennen, Karma, Nidalee & Rumble, and I usually get Haunting Guise, Sweeper, then mostly Tanky AP items (Rylais, Abyssal). Getting DFG usually just sets me back too far.
Runes/Masteries + Sweeper is typically enough CDR for me (except for Karma, I get FH as well), and I've never really had a problem dealing enough damage. Sitting at about +50 W/L in almost 500 games.



I'm shocked you don't build it on LB

that aside, to quote myself "...or you have to build bruiserAP."

Seems like you prefer the bruiser path which is why you don't see the DFG's utility as much. I'm the opposite wherein I run Assassin APs almost all the time, unless I'm catering to a ADsin pick on my team.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WaterD103

Recruiter

10-18-2012

I think it's a good thing. One of my fears or removing or weakening revive, is that revive is keeping Fizz and leblanc on check on this map.
One of the best items for them is DFG, but DFG is not gonna be as great to them now, putting them more on line in case revive is removed/nerfed.
If revived is untoched though, that change will put them on the a little too weak side though.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

deathTOeXistenZ

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Sucks that eve's ult is getting a nerf and DFG is also gettinga nerf. Just the DFG nerf is going to set eve back enough.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AndersMMO

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
deathTOeXistenZ:
Sucks that eve's ult is getting a nerf and DFG is also gettinga nerf. Just the DFG nerf is going to set eve back enough.


I'm gonna be working up an analysis of Eve's Nerf as well as well as a juxtaposition of what the dual-nerf does to her and her viability.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AerosMacCousland

Senior Member

10-18-2012

For Summoners Rift it Was necessary IMO as it allowed APs to Reach 100-0 Burst to Soon While getting CDR Making it Wayyyyyy to good to pass up even tho it costs the viability of some Champions át. The momment Ex:Le Blanc(Who IMO needed buffs regardeless)

But for Dominion tho I agree with your points AP Assassins will be on a Terrible Spot as unlike SR you can't Simply Rush a Death Cap

Well át. least AP Assassins Archtype contain the most Broken Champ of Dominion(may be surpassed if they Buff Kha tho)


Good or bad maybe Talon will get more popular


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ShawNuff

Member

10-18-2012

DFG is just plain overpowered. With it nerfed (and hopefully eventually just removed), we have the hope that burst casters can be buffed to actually do things without relying on a gimmicky item.

The design goal of DFG was to have AP Carries scale even when tanks have 4k HP. What people use it for is to start a combo off on a squishy they plan to 100-0.


123