The Altars..

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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Alters

The Alters are a fun flavorful neutral objective that increases the importance of junglers (although not smite) and increases the pace of the game. They have a similar role to what a buff monster creep would have. However, I believe that there are 2 distinct differences that have a negative effect on 3v3 game play.

Alters do not defend themselves. They are simple to take, just stand on them. Because they are so easy to take, teams want to take them as soon as they are up. This encourages an early skirmish and places a lot of importance on level one team fight. Can you imagine summoners rift if you could easily take Baron at level one, even if jungle buffs are invaded the only counter-play isn't fight, you can always attempt to sneak away the enemy buff. The close proximity of the alters will discourage any passive play like this. So alters encourage teams to fight at level one. Why is this a problem? First, A lot of people are anxious about losing the importance of lanes in 3v3. Secondly teams will have to put a greater importance on a level one fight.

Alters are up every 90 seconds. There is a strong buff to be contested every 90 seconds. This is going to pull teams away from whatever is being done to skirmish in the middle. I've already mentioned concern about the importance of lanes. Additionally it just makes taking the buff feel slightly less rewarding. I believe it is a powerful buff, but when you have to fight over it every 90 seconds, each victory isn't that exciting.

I've pointed these things out as negatives, which is how a vocal part of Twisted Treeline players feel, because they feel like it will change the gameplay of 3v3 to a more skirmish based game that they aren't comfortable with. I've also mentioned how these things can be negative without taking into consideration that it forces constant skirmishing. However, these things were quite obviously implemented with the intention of creating the skirmishes, in order to ensure a faster paced game play. I think that Riot has gone too far.

The alters already create faster gameplay by giving out a gold buff, But they also have negative effects. I think that this can be easily balanced. To me, Solutions such as remove the alters, or keep old twisted treeline are overzealous and bad for 3v3 game play.

Solution

Timer Tweaks in two locations. At start of game Alters should remained locked longer, they should either remain locked or defend themselves to an extent that a team might be able to pressure the opposing team off it. Encouraging a level one skirmish is exciting, but really detracts from lane play and forces team to overly think about level one fighting in champion select. Longer locks is a small fix that might really help.

Once taken, buff remains locked longer. Forcing buff contention every 90 seconds make them feel less rewarding and changes the focus of the game.

I don't know the correct timers for either of these, but fiddling with lock timers seems like a simple fix that might make a lot of people happy, it should at least be tested on the PBE

Taken from my thread that discusses Alters, Wards, and the Speed boost. Red buff has basically been split into these two Alters, I think it needs tweaks not removal to make it allright

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...1#post30386061


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HideyoshiX

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Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mine Jump View Post
What is the point of quoting peoples' posts if you ignore what they're saying? Kwizzeh understood what the altars do. No one has said that point captures are a new idea. No one has said that it should be a 1v1 battle to the deaths without objectives. No one has said that teamfights are unnecessary. No one has denied that the altars give your team an advantage.

I don't know who you're arguing with, but you're right. He does sound like a derp.
The only people who don't want more objectives in a map that was originally designed to be fast paced in the first place are those who do not understand mechanics and those who do not want to group up with their team.


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GRRgamel

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Senior Member

10-18-2012

could you imagine if Summoner's Rift revolved around taking Baron and Dragon every 90 seconds? now imagine that those same buffs don't fight back but just sit there and wait for you to kill it. imagine further, if you will, that there were no wards to watch said objectives. it's not about not wanting to work as a team, because even in the original TT you have to work as a team or it's easy to lose. It's about being distracted from the real reason you play that map. it's not an objective based mode.


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HideyoshiX

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Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwizzeh View Post
This is looking more into a new mode then Twisted Treeline. The whole issue with alters seems very forced upon. "Capture them or lose (complete) control." Do they honestly believe we are that dumb that we won't contest things like Red Buff and Dragon from the Old TT? Because that's what these alters feel like. An afterthought incentive meant to force us to team fight. I do not believe they really thought of the implications of it once we, the players, got our hands on it.

Point capture modes have existed for years. Heck, I've played most them in the last 13 years, some good (Shoutouts to CTF, Wolf:ET and RtCW) and some bad. This falls in the "bad" category.
The primary problem is that you're holding it way too close to your previous idea of Twisted Treeline.

It's a complete REVAMP of it. It's not supposed to be the same thing with a few minor tweaks. They could've done that with the old map, but the ones who aren't new to it actually hate the old map to the extent that we asked for this one.

Do you even know how old the Twisted Treeline is? It was designed for like, 40 less champions in the pool, excluding champion and item reworks.

So we're not here to balance it based on the previous Twisted Treeline. We're here to balance it based on this NEW one. Get that into your thick skulls so we can start having productive discussions on the game already.


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HideyoshiX

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10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRRgamel View Post
could you imagine if Summoner's Rift revolved around taking Baron and Dragon every 90 seconds? now imagine that those same buffs don't fight back but just sit there and wait for you to kill it. imagine further, if you will, that there were no wards to watch said objectives. it's not about not wanting to work as a team, because even in the original TT you have to work as a team or it's easy to lose. It's about being distracted from the real reason you play that map. it's not an objective based mode.
Twisted Treeline was always an objective based mode, and required a lot of map control.

And I've already stated that you gain vision when they start capturing your altars.


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GRRgamel

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10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by HideyoshiX View Post
The only people who don't want more objectives in a map that was originally designed to be fast paced in the first place are those who do not understand mechanics and those who do not want to group up with their team.
if you're going to repeat the same thing and continue to insult everyone here for having a different opinion than you, just leave. open your own thread and talk about how you love the Altars and how everyone else that doesn't like this massive change to a map they've played for years is a "derp" that "doesn't want to group up" and "doesn't understand TT".. you obviously never really played TT before this if you don't think this is a gigantic change to the way the map is played... in a negative way, for that matter.


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HideyoshiX

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Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRRgamel View Post
if you're going to repeat the same thing and continue to insult everyone here for having a different opinion than you, just leave. open your own thread and talk about how you love the Altars and how everyone else that doesn't like this massive change to a map they've played for years is a "derp" that "doesn't want to group up" and "doesn't understand TT".. you obviously never really played TT before this if you don't think this is a gigantic change to the way the map is played... in a negative way, for that matter.
You have 156 total wins in normals. You have no ranked experience. So you're trying to say that -I- haven't played Twisted Treeline before this?

Nice try.

It's the opinions of extremely low level players who don't know anything about balance in the first place. Low level players don't generally group up or understand mechanics.

I was also downvoted when I said map control is very important, and that just goes ahead and proves that people don't know what they're talking about because map control was one of the BIGGEST things in Twisted Treeline.

You NEEDED wards to cover the top area. Dragon died so fast you could solo it with Wriggle's on pretty much any jungler. You were always so over extended in lane that ganks could happen at any time.


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CountMoriarty

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRRgamel View Post
could you imagine if Summoner's Rift revolved around taking Baron and Dragon every 90 seconds? now imagine that those same buffs don't fight back but just sit there and wait for you to kill it. imagine further, if you will, that there were no wards to watch said objectives. it's not about not wanting to work as a team, because even in the original TT you have to work as a team or it's easy to lose. It's about being distracted from the real reason you play that map. it's not an objective based mode.
I'm totally with you here. But if this was the case in SR, the solution wouldn't be remove baron. It would be make Baron spawn later, less often, and buff its damage.

Maybe the solution with the Alters is make it spawn later, less often, and add some damage. What if Alters spawned 6 mins in, locked for 3-4 mins and had a blue buff like golem standing on it that had to be cleared before the alter could be taken. Or any combination of these.


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GRRgamel

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10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CountMoriarty View Post
I'm totally with you here. But if this was the case in SR, the solution wouldn't be remove baron. It would be make Baron spawn later, less often, and buff its damage.

Maybe the solution with the Alters is make it spawn later, less often, and add some damage. What if Alters spawned 6 mins in, locked for 3-4 mins and had a blue buff like golem standing on it that had to be cleared before the alter could be taken. Or any combination of these.
see? i'd be absolutely okay with this. because as of now, it just feels like the whole game is revolved around capturing a point. if they were mini bosses that your team had to work together to get, that actually dealt damage, wasn't up every minute and a half and didn't give such a hearty advantage over the other team, i'd be okay with it. i'd really like it to be single buffs to one team member though. thats the point of Venomaw, the team wide buff.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Add a bit more to the objectives. Sacrifice BLOOD on the Altars. Somehow.

I'll start throwing out my silly ideas at some point.