Lurid Resolve, an AD Caster Item

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Raenarill

Junior Member

10-17-2012

AD casters are for the most part regarded as unviable champions (Talon, Pantheon), because of both problems with their kits and because of lack of itemization. Some people believe that the term "AD Caster" doesn't exist because they are simply bruisers with damage orientated abilities. I believe they do exist, however, Riot just can't make up whether they want Ad casters to be either a mage with AD scaling abilities or a bruiser with high damage abilities and general less utility.

The problem with AD Caster itemization is that the only well scaling items with their kits is an item like Bloodthirster, because of its lifesteal, it encourages auto attacking, something that most of the AD casters kits aren't based around.

The Item I propose:

Lurid Resolve components:
Stinger
Brutalizer
Long Sword

Base Items:
Stinger: 1090 gold. +40% Attack Speed
Unique Passive: +10% Cooldown Reduction
Brutalizer: 1337 gold. +25 Attack Damage
+15 Armour Penetration
Unique Passive: +10% Cooldown Reduction
Long Sword: 415 gold. +10 Attack Damage

Total Item cost: 2842 gold
Recipe cost: 858 gold
Total cost: 3700 gold
Total stats: +40% Attack Speed
+35 Attack Damage
+15 Armour Penetration
Unique Passive: 20% Cooldown Reduction

Lurid Resolve:
+40% Attack Speed
+45 Attack Damage
+20 Armour Penetration
Unique Passive: +20% Cooldown Reduction
Unique Passive: Every ability you cast lowers all other abilities cooldowns by 1 second.
Unique Active: For the next 8 seconds, your melee basic attacks restore 2% of your maximum
mana (40 second cooldown)

So, for Lurid Resolve's recipe, you'd pay 858 gold for 10 Attack Damage, 5 armour penetration, the Unique Passive, and the Unique Active.

Reasoning on stats:
I realized the item was quite cost efficient, hence why I did not raise any amount on neither the attack speed nor the Cooldown Reduction. Some people argue that the item would be extremely effective on AD Carries, especially Ezreal, but this is false. ADCs scale into late game, as such, it is far more cost effective to build stats that maximize their scaling, building Last Whisper is far more efficient for them then to build this item. Also, the active only affects melee attacks. While Attack Speed is a mediocre stat on AD Casters, it is legitimized by Lurid Resolve's active, allowing for near infinite sustain of mana (similar to how Chalice works for a mage). The Unique Passive of lowering cooldowns allow champions like Pantheon to constantly use their abilities as their main source of damage, which is what i'd imagine an "AD Caster" should do. This item provides every stat an AD caster could want, it has a high cost to prevent other characters from wanting to build this item. It provides great utility for the champions that will want to buy it.


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

10-18-2012

Explanation why this is bad:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2661055


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Nykidemus

Senior Member

10-18-2012

I dont really see why you want a bunch of attack speed on a character who's primarily going to be getting damage from abilities.


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Raenarill

Junior Member

10-18-2012

ProfDrDeath, i don't really understand what you mean, I read the entire thread you linked and I didn't see anything that makes my item "overpowered" or "unoriginal" there was:

-New ArPen/MPen
He mentioned that new Armour Penetration items were unneeded because there were already "enough of them" however, there is only Brutalizer, the upgrade to it Youmuu's Ghostblade, and Last Whisper, the latter item meant more for AD Carries, and Brutalizer is an early game item. Yes, you could argue that Brutalizer is a strong early game item and therefore should not get a relevant late game item, but that makes the item all but useless unless you are snowballing hard in your lane, and even then buying double doran's blades is nearly as effective for less of a cost. As I already mentioned in my thread, some people may argue that this item may be relevant to build on an ADC because of the stats that it gives, however, my item offers no Crit Chance and has no late game scaling for ADCs except for the attack speed (which it is far more cost efficient to buy PD anyway).

-Item combinations that would render current combinations useless (i.e. Brutalizer+Zeal)
I can understand how this item combination would be overpowered, for scaling with an ADC. However, just offering attack speed on an item doesn't make it a relevant item for ADCs to build (unlike Brutalizer + Zeal which offers Attack Speed, Critical Strike chance, Attack Damage, Armour Penetration, and Cooldown Reduction, all stats which are beneficial to an ADC), Attack Speed alone does not synergize with an ADC, that would be like saying Stinger is a good item to build on an ADC, which it is not. My item has no stats that benefit an ADC nearly as much as other more cost efficient items, but at the same time offers good stats that could be used by a "mage" that scales with AD (what I envision an "AD Caster" is meant to be).

Nykidemus

I understand where you are coming from, Attack Speed is not a very useful stat for AD Casters, I originally mentioned why it isn't optimal, however, I also mentioned why it is on this item, it works on this item for AD Casters (assuming they should not rely on Auto Attacks) because of its Unique Active, being able to attack more often would allow you to restore more mana in the duration of the time then if you had no Attack Speed, therefore synergizing with itself.


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JustMyBassCannon

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10-18-2012

You've completely overwritten the usefulness of Youmuu's Ghostblade with this item concept; Yeah, Youmuu's has 15% Crit, so does ExCa and it still sees more use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raenarill View Post
-New ArPen/MPen
He mentioned that new Armour Penetration items were unneeded because there were already "enough of them" however, there is only Brutalizer, the upgrade to it Youmuu's Ghostblade, and Last Whisper, the latter item meant more for AD Carries, and Brutalizer is an early game item. Yes, you could argue that Brutalizer is a strong early game item and therefore should not get a relevant late game item, but that makes the item all but useless unless you are snowballing hard in your lane, and even then buying double doran's blades is nearly as effective for less of a cost. As I already mentioned in my thread, some people may argue that this item may be relevant to build on an ADC because of the stats that it gives, however, my item offers no Crit Chance and has no late game scaling for ADCs except for the attack speed (which it is far more cost efficient to buy PD anyway).
There is enough Armor Pen in the game period; if you include shred (armor reduction), masteries and runes, you've got more than enough of the stuff at your disposal to keep your damage relevant throughout the game. If they're building enough Armor to survive despite your Armor Pen, you're focusing the wrong target and should save them for last (and they should melt to mages as well).

Yes, this doesn't have Crit Chance or Move Speed. Did you know Phantom Dancers are getting another MS nerf and give absolutely no AD or ArPen as they are, making them every bit as relevant as this item?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raenarill View Post
-Item combinations that would render current combinations useless (i.e. Brutalizer+Zeal)
I can understand how this item combination would be overpowered, for scaling with an ADC. However, just offering attack speed on an item doesn't make it a relevant item for ADCs to build (unlike Brutalizer + Zeal which offers Attack Speed, Critical Strike chance, Attack Damage, Armour Penetration, and Cooldown Reduction, all stats which are beneficial to an ADC),
No, but your item combination doesn't merely offer Attack Speed; you've got CDR, AD and ArPen. The only stats you're missing are Crit and MS, which exist in PD and Trinity (and will be on C&D), so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raenarill View Post
Attack Speed alone does not synergize with an ADC, that would be like saying Stinger is a good item to build on an ADC, which it is not.
Stinger is actually fantastic early game on a lot of RADCs. The only reason you don't see it is entirely because it doesn't build into a good item for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raenarill View Post
My item has no stats that benefit an ADC nearly as much as other more cost efficient items, but at the same time offers good stats that could be used by a "mage" that scales with AD (what I envision an "AD Caster" is meant to be).
This item has no innate defense or sustain to it; all AD casters are either assassins or bruisers, and this item offers only damage output (yes, a bit of utility from CDR, though that just becomes more damage output really). It would be better used on RADCs than your intended audience of AD casters.


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Raenarill

Junior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
You've completely overwritten the usefulness of Youmuu's Ghostblade with this item concept; Yeah, Youmuu's has 15% Crit, so does ExCa and it still sees more use.
Yes, in a way i've completely overwritten Youmuu's ghostblade, but the item is barely viable as is and is not a very good buy for just about every character in the game, the stats and the active on it do not benefit a ADC for the price and crit and attack speed isn't necessary on bruisers, it is too cost inefficient to ever see real use. Therefore, the item could be remade in the future to be more relevant, this item offers another build path for Brutalizer that has late game scaling and cost efficiency.

Quote:
There is enough Armor Pen in the game period; if you include shred (armor reduction), masteries and runes, you've got more than enough of the stuff at your disposal to keep your damage relevant throughout the game. If they're building enough Armor to survive despite your Armor Pen, you're focusing the wrong target and should save them for last (and they should melt to mages as well).
Yes, Armour Penetration is an accessible stat, and like spell vampirism should be kept to a minimal. However, not only is Black Cleaver (the armour shred) another non-cost efficient item for its price (unless you rush the item, Last Whisper outdoes the item in 99% of situations late game for less of a price and only a minor difference in Attack Damage)

Quote:
Yes, this doesn't have Crit Chance or Move Speed. Did you know Phantom Dancers are getting another MS nerf and give absolutely no AD or ArPen as they are, making them every bit as relevant as this item?
A bit off topic here, but Move Speed stacking on Phantom Dancer/Trinity Force is known to give too much utility in kiting on an AD Carry, Lich Bane only gives 7% movement speed for more of a cost than PD, either way, it is a free stat that is for the most part completely unnecessary on an item in the first place. No, PD does not give neither Attack Damage nor Arm Pen and for good reason, PD is meant to be built on ADCs because it synergizes with other items they pick up, Crit Chance and Attack Speed scale with themselves and ADCs receive Attack Damage and Armour Penetration from other items (such as Last Whisper and Infinity Edge).

Quote:
No, but your item combination doesn't merely offer Attack Speed; you've got CDR, AD and ArPen. The only stats you're missing are Crit and MS, which exist in PD and Trinity (and will be on C&D), so...
Exactly, "which exist in PD and Trinity" these items contain these stats, however, that is because they are meant to be built into an ADCs build. For example:
Average ADC build: Zerker Grieves, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, The Bloodthirster, Last Whisper, [Defensive Item] such as Guardian Angel or Quicksilver Sash, some also may take Trinity Force instead of Phantom Dancer. That is all 6 items, in that build, which item would you substitute this item for? None, giving up anyone of these items in the current ADC meta would not be worth it for this item, all of those items are necessary on an ADC in one way or another, and the only optional exchange is PD for Trinity Force and that is more for ADCs who can also use their skills effectively and make use of its Passives (Corki, Ezreal). My point being is that while this item gives desirable stats for an ADC (somewhat anyway) it doesn't give enough, nor does it offer the late game scaling of % based Armour Penetration that an ADC needs to have consistent damage output against their targets.

Quote:
Stinger is actually fantastic early game on a lot of RADCs. The only reason you don't see it is entirely because it doesn't build into a good item for them.
Stinger is 1090 gold for: 40% Attack Speed, 10% CDR.
2 Doran's Blades are 950 gold and give: +160 HP, +20 Attack Damage, +6% Lifesteal

If ADC [A] were to walk into lane with a Stinger vs ADC [B] with 2 doran's blades, not only does ADC [B] have far more sustain with the life steal/HP/extra 140 gold [to be spent on potions most likely], they can win trades better with the Attack Damage + Life Steal and last hit better with the attack damage, none of which is offered by Stinger, the 10% Cooldown Reduction just isn't enough to get another spell off in a trade (even if it were possible you'll just spam yourself OOM).

Quote:
This item has no innate defense or sustain to it; all AD casters are either assassins or bruisers, and this item offers only damage output (yes, a bit of utility from CDR, though that just becomes more damage output really). It would be better used on RADCs than your intended audience of AD casters.
True that this item offers not sustain, but it is not meant to. Think of Infinity Edge, it offers no sustain yet is still a must pickup for an ADC because of the importance of the stats it gives. Since most AD Casters are encouraged to buy items such as The Bloodthirster which offer sustain anyway, I didn't think this item needed it. (The Unique Active offers a form of sustain in lane anyway with the mana restoration). Yes this item offers only damage output (CDR does translate to more damage on an AD Caster) remember however that the CDR can also be perceived as offering additional utility (think of a lowered cooldown on Pantheon's Aegis of Zeonia [W] etc), "It would be better used on RADCs than your intended audience of AD casters" once again, the item just cannot fit into an ADCs current required build, and the Unique Active was made to only affect Melee attacks anyway (similar to Youmuu's Ghostblade).


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JustMyBassCannon

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10-18-2012

I'd like to point out two things. First of all, you mentioned "the average ADC build" as if that were a set-in-stone factor. Xypherous plans on reworking the items for ADCs so they don't have to build that every game (and yes, that is the most used build on ADCs because it's usually the most DPS efficient). Saying that PD "belongs" in the ADC build is like saying Zhonya's Ring "belonged" on all AP carries; that's the whole reason the item was deconstructed into Zhonya's and Rabadon's.

Second, on this point...

Quote:
Stinger is 1090 gold for: 40% Attack Speed, 10% CDR.
2 Doran's Blades are 950 gold and give: +160 HP, +20 Attack Damage, +6% Lifesteal
Early game does not mean rushed. I can start with Regrowth Pendant and still build a Sheen early game. My starting item does not necessarily have to build into my core early game item. Also, what if your champion scales better with AS than AD early game? Yeah, sure, Draven and Graves will do better with the 2 Doran's Blades (or Brutalizer, if they wanted this item you're suggesting), but what about Varus? What about MF? What about Vayne? What about Kog'maw? All of them would do better with Stinger if it built into an AD carry item.

Please don't defend this item suggestion with "it wouldn't fit in the current AD carry build" because the current AD carry build is going to change unless Riot fires Xypherous before he can do anything.


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Raenarill

Junior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
I'd like to point out two things. First of all, you mentioned "the average ADC build" as if that were a set-in-stone factor. Xypherous plans on reworking the items for ADCs so they don't have to build that every game (and yes, that is the most used build on ADCs because it's usually the most DPS efficient). Saying that PD "belongs" in the ADC build is like saying Zhonya's Ring "belonged" on all AP carries; that's the whole reason the item was deconstructed into Zhonya's and Rabadon's.
Yes, Xypherous is planning on reworking the items for ADCs, but I can hardly imagine a vast itemization for them to choose from, ADCs will have the most static build of any role in the game because of the fact their sole role is dealing DPS, what sort of item variety could possibly change this role and add many more choices? Add another item that gives Attack Damage and Movement speed with a Crit Chance stacking passive? Etc etc, either way, ADCs will always have to build towards one goal, and that goal is damage. While another role such as a bruiser will build towards both damage and defense/utility, for example: you can build Maw of Malmortius for Attack Damage, the passive(s), and the magic resist, but you could also build Frozen Mallet for the health it gives, Attack Damage, and a very useful utility based unique passive.

Quote:
Early game does not mean rushed. I can start with Regrowth Pendant and still build a Sheen early game. My starting item does not necessarily have to build into my core early game item. Also, what if your champion scales better with AS than AD early game? Yeah, sure, Draven and Graves will do better with the 2 Doran's Blades (or Brutalizer, if they wanted this item you're suggesting), but what about Varus? What about MF? What about Vayne? What about Kog'maw? All of them would do better with Stinger if it built into an AD carry item.
I never mentioned Stinger would be rushed, for example, the ADC could start with boots and 3 potions (or both for the matter of this example), my point being that, hypothetically, if both walked into lane with boots and 3 potions, and then both based at exactly 1090 gold, ADC [A] bought 2 Doran's Blades and 4 health potions, while ADC [B] bought a Stinger, ADC [A] will win trades, have better sustain, and last hit more effectively. Even if the Attack Speed of Stinger was legitimized by carries that scale extremely well with attack speed such as Kog'Maw or Vayne, the scaling just cannot compete with the fact that if the enemy carry with 2 doran's blades simply auto attacking will allow for better sustain than what Stinger offers (and at less of a cost). Even if Stinger could be built into an ADC item, why not just build Zeal? Zeal builds into Trinity Force and PD, both already very strong ADC items.

The Stinger vs Double Doran's falls into the same sort of arguement as Doran's Blade start vs Boots 3 Potions start, Doran's blade offers early damage and a minimal amount of sustain, while Boots and 3 Potions offers 450 free health over time, and boots for dodging skill shots, moving around the map better, and evading ganks more effectively, it just cannot compete.


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JustMyBassCannon

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10-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raenarill View Post
I never mentioned Stinger would be rushed, for example, the ADC could start with boots and 3 potions (or both for the matter of this example), my point being that, hypothetically, if both walked into lane with boots and 3 potions, and then both based at exactly 1090 gold, ADC [A] bought 2 Doran's Blades and 4 health potions, while ADC [B] bought a Stinger, ADC [A] will win trades, have better sustain, and last hit more effectively. Even if the Attack Speed of Stinger was legitimized by carries that scale extremely well with attack speed such as Kog'Maw or Vayne, the scaling just cannot compete with the fact that if the enemy carry with 2 doran's blades simply auto attacking will allow for better sustain than what Stinger offers (and at less of a cost). Even if Stinger could be built into an ADC item, why not just build Zeal? Zeal builds into Trinity Force and PD, both already very strong ADC items.

The Stinger vs Double Doran's falls into the same sort of arguement as Doran's Blade start vs Boots 3 Potions start, Doran's blade offers early damage and a minimal amount of sustain, while Boots and 3 Potions offers 450 free health over time, and boots for dodging skill shots, moving around the map better, and evading ganks more effectively, it just cannot compete.
Well, first, that's assuming a perfect farm scenario where they're exactly equal (which is the best way to do a comparison, but hardly realistic at all). Second, yeah, 2xDoran's is stronger early game than Stinger. Pick anything around 1200 gold for AD carries and compare it to 2xDoran's and boots; that is the strongest early-game item combination ever by design.

The thing is, Doran's Blade does not transition well after the laning phase. There are players willing to forgo the early game boost so they don't have to waste 475 gold in reselling late game.


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Raenarill

Junior Member

10-18-2012

Quote:
The thing is, Doran's Blade does not transition well after the laning phase. There are players willing to forgo the early game boost so they don't have to waste 475 gold in reselling late game.
The problem with this (at least, in the current meta) is that if you were to forgo the early doran's blades, for example, I have seen players build towards Wriggle's Lantern, or maybe they'll just save for a BF Sword, Wriggle's Lantern suffering from the same problem as Doran's Blades [in a way] and the problem with saving for a BF Sword is that, if you are forced to base before you have earned 1650 gold (very common), then you will walk back to lane with literally no items other than boots [if you started with them] or whatever item you started with. While your opponent, who for this example came back with double doran's blades after seeing you base, will be able to completely out lane you in just about every way. This sacrifice will decrease your effectiveness in lane and will most likely result in you getting zoned and losing creep score anyway, therefore the Doran's Blades refund themselves in denying your opponent who refused to buy them/getting you farm that much more ahead of the person you are laning against. Once you have this laning/gold advantage, you would have made back the gold you'd spent on doran's blade and denied your opponent gold in the process, therefore removing any sort of disadvantage you had put yourself in the first place. (Most people won't sell their doran's blades until much later into the game anyway, why sell a doran's blade for a pickaxe when you still have 3 open inventory slots when you could keep the blade, farm X amount of gold you still need, then have both?)


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