Is Rengar an assassin?

Yes, he is. 67 69.07%
No, he isn't. 30 30.93%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

Rengar: Assassin?

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Adrian Umbra

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Alrighty. I'm posting this because I am seeing way too much argument about whether or not Rengar is an assassin. So I'm looking to see what the community thinks overall.


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Aralonde

Senior Member

10-16-2012

No. Assassins do lots of damage but can't take much in return and thus require timing and burst. Rengar can take a beating and survive easily.


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Adrian Umbra

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aralonde View Post
No. Assassins do lots of damage but can't take much in return and thus require timing and burst. Rengar can take a beating and survive easily.
Jax, Lee Sin, and Xin Zhao are considered assassins. By the same effect, melee AD carries with high burst like Fiora are not. Graves is not considered an assassin, despite his high burst and squishiness. Why does an assassin need to be squishy? I could build Rengar with 6 Bloodthirsters. Would that make him an assassin? I could build Talon with 6 Warmogs. Does that make him not an assassin?


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Togekiss24

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Umbra View Post
Jax, Lee Sin, and Xin Zhao are considered assassins. By the same effect, melee AD carries with high burst like Fiora are not. Graves is not considered an assassin, despite his high burst and squishiness. Why does an assassin need to be squishy? I could build Rengar with 6 Bloodthirsters. Would that make him an assassin? I could build Talon with 6 Warmogs. Does that make him not an assassin?
Exactly. Squishiness does not determine who is an assassin, but how much burst damage they do within a short time and ability to single out opponents. Look at irelia, for instance. Almost magically tanky but a wicked burst.


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Adrian Umbra

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Togekiss24 View Post
Exactly. Squishiness does not determine who is an assassin, but how much burst damage they do within a short time and ability to single out opponents. Look at irelia, for instance. Almost magically tanky but a wicked burst.
Thank you, voice of reason.


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Aralonde

Senior Member

10-16-2012

It's not just high burst and lack of bulk that makes you an assassin. It's high burst and high specialized mobility. What I mean by specialized mobility is the ability to enter and exit a fight in a short amount of time, not just run around really fast. Assassin's jobs are to enter a fight fast, kill their weaker target, and get out before they themselves are killed.

A big problem arises when an assassin has a lot of bulk because now they don't have to worry about being efficient. The lack of bulk in assassins exists as their weakness because if you were to have a character with high burst, high specialized mobility, AND high durability/bulkiness then that would be overpowered because there is little innate weakness to the champion in question. That's the problem everyone has with Rengar now. He has the strengths of an assassin AND a bulky DPS at the same time. And each motif's strengths directly negate the others weaknesses. Bulky DPS lacks either the burst or the mobility of a frail DPS, and an assassin lacks the durability to take a lot of damage.


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Adrian Umbra

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10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aralonde View Post
It's not just high burst and lack of bulk that makes you an assassin. It's high burst and high specialized mobility. What I mean by specialized mobility is the ability to enter and exit a fight in a short amount of time, not just run around really fast. Assassin's jobs are to enter a fight fast, kill their weaker target, and get out before they themselves are killed.

A big problem arises when an assassin has a lot of bulk because now they don't have to worry about being efficient. The lack of bulk in assassins exists as their weakness because if you were to have a character with high burst, high specialized mobility, AND high durability/bulkiness then that would be overpowered because there is little innate weakness to the champion in question. That's the problem everyone has with Rengar now. He has the strengths of an assassin AND a bulky DPS at the same time. And each motif's strengths directly negate the others weaknesses. Bulky DPS lacks either the burst or the mobility of a frail DPS, and an assassin lacks the durability to take a lot of damage.
There are far more durable assassins out there, especially using your definition. Jax for example. Lee Sin. Those who you just ruled out. And Bulky DPS has the weakness that they fall off late game. They tend to get burst from Triforce and can be quite mobile. J4, Wukong, Skarner, and Shyvana are great counterexamples for your definition. At the same time, champions such as Akali don't really have that "specialized mobility" that assassins seem to need. Nocturne, despite being considered a pretty good assassin, becomes tanky DPS. Renekton becomes an assassin due to his interfight mobility. Hecarim is now an assassin. So is Graves.

As far as durability on an assassin, if I play Talon and get super fed, I might build a Frozen Mallet and maybe a Warmog's in addition to my 2 Bloodthirsters. Now I'm tanky, have burst and mobility, and I'm not playing a character who is regarded as OP. If I play Evelynn and build her with Rylai's and stacking RoAs, does she all of a stop becoming an assassin? You just can't base being an assassin on durability because you can simply build durability. It just gets too easy to poke holes in your definition as long as that's a criteria.

Finally, if Rengar is both an assassin and tanky DPS, why do you insist he's not an assassin? If you really want to see the current definition of assassin, Lol Wiki has a pretty nice one set up for you to look at.


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Aralonde

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Umbra View Post
There are far more durable assassins out there, especially using your definition. Jax for example. Lee Sin. Those who you just ruled out. And Bulky DPS has the weakness that they fall off late game. They tend to get burst from Triforce and can be quite mobile. J4, Wukong, Skarner, and Shyvana are great counterexamples for your definition. At the same time, champions such as Akali don't really have that "specialized mobility" that assassins seem to need. Nocturne, despite being considered a pretty good assassin, becomes tanky DPS. Renekton becomes an assassin due to his interfight mobility. Hecarim is now an assassin. So is Graves.

As far as durability on an assassin, if I play Talon and get super fed, I might build a Frozen Mallet and maybe a Warmog's in addition to my 2 Bloodthirsters. Now I'm tanky, have burst and mobility, and I'm not playing a character who is regarded as OP. If I play Evelynn and build her with Rylai's and stacking RoAs, does she all of a stop becoming an assassin? You just can't base being an assassin on durability because you can simply build durability. It just gets too easy to poke holes in your definition as long as that's a criteria.

Finally, if Rengar is both an assassin and tanky DPS, why do you insist he's not an assassin? If you really want to see the current definition of assassin, Lol Wiki has a pretty nice one set up for you to look at.
You entirely missed the point of what I said. Just having a blink alone does not make you an assassin. Jax, Xin, skarner, shyvana lack the burst. Wukong lacks the innate bulk. Akali has 3 blinks and a stealth. Renek isn't that mobile compared to the others. Hecarim is an assassin and lacks innate bulk. Yes you can make a champ like Nocturne go warmogs Bveil Atmas Sunfire Merc treads but they will lack the damage of Nocturne with Bloodthirster IE Last whisper etc. Conversely casters with RoA and Rylais aren't really that bulky since they last armor and magic resistance. Just bulkier. If you mix and match items your burst will be slightly weaker compared to full out damage build and your bulk will be slightly weaker compared to full out tank build thus balancing out.

Rengar can be classified as an assassin technically because he has the burst and the specialized mobility. He also has a lot of bulk. One of those things needs to be gotten rid of. The easiest would be to tone down his damage out put thus making him not an assassin anymore. I would argue that the bulk of Rengar is much more quintessential than his burst thus making him a bulky DPS who happens to have the damage output of an assassin right now. You could classify him as an assassin who happens to have the bulk of a tank. Either way, something needs to be toned down.


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Akali also has an Armor/MR buff that is BETTER than Rengar's inside her shroud. And how does his mobility let him escape fights? there are plenty of fighters with gapclosers... having a gapcloser doesn't make you an assassin... and if Rengar is an Assassin just because he does a lot of burst, then so is Darius and so is Garen.

No, there are very specific differences between assassins and fighters, but EITHER ONE can have burst damage... just like some fighters can tank well, some can do burst damage well... fighters are essentially a hybrid of assassin and tank and have aspects of BOTH, but there are key differences:

Fighters have cc that help them stick to targets if they have cc, things which make it hard to escape, like slows, limited snares, and silences... the tankier ones may have disruption like an aoe knockup, or knockback... they survive incoming damage mostly by means of defensive steroids, self-heals, or abilities that enhance their tankiness. Fighters defensive abilities, heals, and steroids enhance the effect of defensive gear, so that gear scales well with them. Fighters are capable of doing decent sustained damage. Their method of getting to targets tends to be offensive movement abilities with limited escape utility, either short-mid range gapclosers or more commonly just a movespeed boost.

Assassins have hard cc that lock down targets for a short time if they have cc: Stuns, Fears, good snares, single-target knockups, etc.. if they don't have cc, then they have a very good way to AVOID a lot of damage for a short amount of time. They don't work off of tanking it... their abilities let them avoid damage without gear, so buying defensive gear is not very good for them...It doesn't scale with their abilities at all. Also their damage scaling tends to reward them more for buying damage items, as it tends to multiply greatly when they do their combos. Assassins cannot do sustained damage... after a short period of burst, their damage is practically all gone, so they HAVE to withdraw. Assassins get to targets using extremely good movement abilities with very good utility, usually very long range or spammable, which can also be used to escape.

What Rengar is, is a fighter who is all the way on the burst damage side... but he does NOT have the mobility of an assassin, he does NOT have the way to avoid damage, he has to tank it instead, and his burst is NOT as good as an assassin's (though it is close, if he charges up his abilities first... Akali or LeBlanc or any real assassin does not need to charge up before comboing someone), he is also quite capable of doing sustained damage. His tankiness and base stats (bulk) are actually some of the weakest of any fighter's.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

10-17-2012

Huh, funny, Sure, Rengar is a massive pain in my early game (If I don't keep track of his ferocity level anyways) as Irelia, but mid game/late game/any time after I got wit's end? He's going to pop like a bubble and not do much to scratch my shiny armor.