Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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Ledinax

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Bumpity bump!


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Rossingol

Senior Member

11-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
Corki/Ezrael/Graves

These are still the only champs really played for the most part even after the nerfs. There are occasionally Kog'Maws and Vaynes, but teams need to be built around them as opposed to those three always being 'safe' picks.

Jayce/Irelia/Jax/Yorick

You saw how the Koreans were ripping it up with Jayce in MLG Dallas. I know you nerfed him in the patch right after this though.

Skarner/Maokai/Shyvana/Lee Sin

Yeah Skarner got nerfed too and I can already see this has affected his play.


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Ledinax

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Bump!


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Ledinax

Senior Member

11-05-2012

Another bump!


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Ledinax

Senior Member

02-15-2013

And now you decide to NERF TARIC????

Because the other supports are fine, I guess!!! Really?? REALLY??


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Ledinax

Senior Member

02-15-2013

Outrageous bump!


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March of Dimes

Senior Member

02-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.
Yeah, aware this is an old thread, still this remains relevant:

What happens when new releases are usually overpowered? Power level across the board increases, just as you said.

What about when more of these new champs belong to some classes than others? The classes with more new additions powercreep more than the other classes. This is why support is declining in power relative to the other classes.

Sure, you can bring S3 itemization into discussion (call me on "sightstone" and I'll raise you "locket" which is currently more useful on bruiser than support, or anything related to health stacking, which supports generally can't do), but as a class that largely doesn't get items (especially in competitive play), should this really be used in defending the state of support?


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Ledinax

Senior Member

02-15-2013

Gotta stay in the front page today (8).


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Ledinax

Senior Member

02-15-2013

Love the balance in this game. Better nerf Taric and leave health stacking untouched.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-15-2013
5 of 15 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by March of Dimes View Post
Yeah, aware this is an old thread, still this remains relevant:

What happens when new releases are usually overpowered? Power level across the board increases, just as you said.

What about when more of these new champs belong to some classes than others? The classes with more new additions powercreep more than the other classes. This is why support is declining in power relative to the other classes.

Sure, you can bring S3 itemization into discussion (call me on "sightstone" and I'll raise you "locket" which is currently more useful on bruiser than support, or anything related to health stacking, which supports generally can't do), but as a class that largely doesn't get items (especially in competitive play), should this really be used in defending the state of support?
Support items (via gold) were one of the most buffed classes in Season 3 (maybe except bruisers...BRUUUUISSEEEERSSSSS!), but there's still way more upward powercreep than there is power loss. This is becoming more problematic in characters who have low skill ceilings (looking at you many Fighters and Taric!) because if they're as strong as other options in a myriad of situations, then that invalidates ever taking the risk or preference choice to play something that does allow you to showcase skill.

Comparing the game each season shows an increase in power. Some of that is natural growth and maturation (people learn more on how to optimize the game as they get access to more pro streams, spectator brought this up, replays will bring this up) as well as new champions or items. The game will naturally creep upward, so that's where nerfs combat that.