Riot, all this mess about incoming Sona nerfs is a proof of reverse power creep.

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rekrn123

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's like we nerfed two of those (Graves and Corki are nerfed now) and Ez's getting swatted this patch.

I'm sorry, were you trying to call me out on something that we fixed? Thanks for letting people know it's not just support
Hey morello just for the lulz you should revert sona back to her original state for like a week. Would be funny to see what that level of power would do to the game right now.

Then you can go ahead and nerf her into the ground like she needs. Or really just remake her because this issue will never go away with her kit as it is.


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Edzter

Senior Member

10-16-2012

some champions have op kits, yet their damage is no op, jayce and alistar would be a good example


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Nevan Superb´tch

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Comparing a champion that was widly overpowered (let's go look at those release numbers, eh?) to the current state isn't a valid data set. By this logic, Vlad is terrible and unusable, as is TF and Zyra :P

Sona's GREAT right now. She's very good, and very strong - superb poke, good utility, and tank-level AOE CC. Saying she's bad is just...wrong.
Morello, you're obviously delusional.


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Eiales

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

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Originally Posted by Sincarnation View Post
there are only 3 mage/supports
Morgana
Lux
Zilean

All three are very capable and powerful mages with Zilean being the weakest damage wise due to the one damage skill
There are only 3 mage supports because
Janna
Soraka
Sona
Alistar
Lulu

were nerfed out of their mage alt-builds.


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Moosin

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
It's not out. Someone has to stick to 0cs meta. It will always be in.
It's just that no one wants to play it. It's a spot that requires you to be less impactful than others.

You've talked about how game changing Janna's ult can be. Replace it with Ori or Amumu. See the difference? That's the difference between other champs and supports.

When I heard you designed Zyra, I kinda gave up on this game. An AP champ with more utility than support/jungle. Yeah why bother playing other spots when you can do more in both dmg and util department?

Support will be there, it has it's roles. Although I worry there may not be many players left to play it.


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Adumbro Deus

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Recruiter

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.

For supports, we're going to take it on the chin if we ever nerf any of them at this point, regardless of if it is or isn't correct - the negative feelings of the nerfs we've done have really left a sour taste in people's mouth (and I can understand that).

What this means, is it's going to be even harder to get usable feedback because it's going to be a lot of frustration and anger (Hostile Miku finally lost it with the idea of another Sona nerf!). It's very, very clear to me that this will anger people - I get that.

I also want to be clear, while I'm signing off on this stuff, this is the recommendation my experts are making - and their analysis checks out. I'll ask them to come give it in person on the forums if we do decide to hit Sona so there's more context. That won't solve the anger problem (you can't out-logic emotion), but maybe at least make it understandable.

It's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.

What I will say is, if we do push supports out, we'll get them back in - just like we did with Sona. We'll just be faster next time Out goal is not to push them out, but it's also not OK to have only Sona/Janna/Soraka used (this was literally six weeks ago in NA finals). If Sona is pushing out Lulu, Janna, and Soraka, that's as much of a problem as if it Leona or Blitz were doing it.
Jesus christ no morello, sona's powerful at this point in the game to basically solo zone out say, a vayne/nunu lane. Yes it's a weak lane, but the fact that any support brings that much power is just ridiculous.


Please, this is gonna be impossible to balance and any support will close off so many avenues of play.


Perhaps the answer is to get better PR, I know that spellsy has given similar sentiments in the past, many you could get some pro support players to actually tell people how ridiculously powerful supports are right now.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
t's tough, because in cases like this we have to make a choice between making players mad or doing what makes the game better and more balanced. Making players mad isn't something we like to do, but sometimes it is something we have to do.
Why isn't this logic applied to Nasus then? I find this a bit inconsistent Morello. You've specifically stated in another thread that Nasus is left unviable because people like how he infinitely scales....despite the fact this is what makes him OP.

Why not rework him then without the infinite scaling, let some Nasus players be mad for a while, then come out with a much better champion that's potentially viable in high elo and tournament play?


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Elder Chewbaka

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Comparing a champion that was widly overpowered (let's go look at those release numbers, eh?) to the current state isn't a valid data set. By this logic, Vlad is terrible and unusable, as is TF and Zyra :P

Sona's GREAT right now. She's very good, and very strong - superb poke, good utility, and tank-level AOE CC. Saying she's bad is just...wrong.
it is not that Sona was too strong
you nerfed EVERYTHING to a such level that they became too weak compared to her


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Ephringael

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Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Comparing a champion that was widly overpowered (let's go look at those release numbers, eh?) to the current state isn't a valid data set. By this logic, Vlad is terrible and unusable, as is TF and Zyra :P

Sona's GREAT right now. She's very good, and very strong - superb poke, good utility, and tank-level AOE CC. Saying she's bad is just...wrong.
Alistar has good utility, a good defensive steriod, and tank level AOE CC one a short cooldown WITH a knockback. That said, don't see why Sona can't have good poke, good utility, and a tank level AOE CC, but okay, fine, I can man up and deal to play my favorite champion.

Lower her poke then. Make it take 4 to powerchord, or lower he q damage. Something. But thats it. Seriously. ONLY do that. I play Tank Sona. That is my style. If you do that, she has good utility, and a tank level AOE CC. She makes a good tank support at that point.

You say you want there to be a lot of different ways to play your champions. like DPS Alistar and Support tank Alistar. Well I play Support Tank Sona. I am not the only one. Do not take this away from me and everyone else. That is all I ask.


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Ranzera

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is a red herring. The power level across the board, generally, is up - we constantly add total power to the game. There's zero evidence of a progression of reverse power creep - in fact, our game is power-creeping a little.
Don't patronize us. The only one making across the board comparisons here is you. Supports have been in reverse power creep free fall since season 1. We can obviously all see that you're hopelessly power creeping everything else. Do you honestly believe that it's ok to make overtly OP champs but then make up for it by nerfing unrelated champions? Because that's what your statement right there suggests.

You are WIDENING the power gap by nerfing a weak class of champions while power creeping elsewhere. This makes that class of champion unpopular and that makes people who enjoy playing those kinds of champions not enjoy playing your game. I think you're smart enough to know what happens then.

You are noticing a large amount of anger about this. Maybe you should try listening for a change. DOTA 2 isn't going to stay in beta forever, it'd be unfortunate for you if they had a more fun game.